Author Topic: Thoughts of being Transgender  (Read 4614 times)

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2013, 07:16:30 am »
The Vinaya is not a set book,almost all vinayas are different from one anouther and why is that???

In the Digha Nikaya sutta 16 one of the last things the Buddha told his followers before he went into parinirvana,was that they could remove all minor precepts leaving only the major precepts.

Essentially the Vinaya of Thervadans does not allow gays to be ordained....BUT the Thervadans are more than welcome to remove that Vinaya precept if they want too.in fact they are permitted to remove almost all of their precepts (since most are minor)

The Brahma Net Sutra is the Bodhisattva precepts,the reason Tendai switched to them was for obvious reasons.....The Lotus sutra teaches that the Buddha only teaches Bodhisattvas,hence the removal of Shravaka precepts for the Bodhisattva precepts.




Offline Alexey

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2013, 07:57:16 am »
Some peoples enjoy Discipline, others not.

What i can say, is that Discipline is a source of happiness and peace. Why? Because you set your body and mind on some kinds of train-rails and it's goes on. You have no to suffer about choices or reflect 'how to do?', suffer about your choices etc, you just apply precepts and still in peace, without regrets or others weaknesses of mind.

Discipline is a source of happines, there is no doubts. Anyway for me.

Mara dont like Discipline, because it's a jail for him.
But until he is in jail - we feel free, until he is free - we are in jail...

Perhaps it's an offtopic here, but as we speak about Discipline i would like to say some words about this wonderful tool in practice.

In a narrow tube water rises faster.  :pray:
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:59:06 am by Alexey »
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Offline songhill

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 08:03:44 am »
What is the Theravadin take on pâtimokkha (S. prâtimoksa)? The reason I am asking is because as I read the defintion it has nothing to do with regula.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 10:18:08 am »

The Brahma Net Sutra is the Bodhisattva precepts,the reason Tendai switched to them was for obvious reasons.....The Lotus sutra teaches that the Buddha only teaches Bodhisattvas,hence the removal of Shravaka precepts for the Bodhisattva precepts.

Unfortunately, it's just as easy to break a precept by recognizing the written letter and not the spirit in which it was given, compared to one who ignores the precept entirely and tosses it out the window --- the precepts from the Brahma Net Sutra are not exempt from this.

For example, the written letter of the sixth major precept states that a disciple of the Buddha must not broadcast the misdeeds or infractions of Bodhisattva clerics or laypersons, nor of ordinary monks and nuns, nor encourage others to do so, but the written letter of the precept fails to mention something that's very important, that if through our silence we have knowingly allowed misconduct or abuse to continue to occur, then by that very "silence" we have also become a willing participant in that misconduct or abuse.

There is the written letter... and the spirit in which it is given  :om:

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 01:42:03 pm »

The Brahma Net Sutra is the Bodhisattva precepts,the reason Tendai switched to them was for obvious reasons.....The Lotus sutra teaches that the Buddha only teaches Bodhisattvas,hence the removal of Shravaka precepts for the Bodhisattva precepts.

Unfortunately, it's just as easy to break a precept by recognizing the written letter and not the spirit in which it was given, compared to one who ignores the precept entirely and tosses it out the window --- the precepts from the Brahma Net Sutra are not exempt from this.


For example, the written letter of the sixth major precept states that a disciple of the Buddha must not broadcast the misdeeds or infractions of Bodhisattva clerics or laypersons, nor of ordinary monks and nuns, nor encourage others to do so, but the written letter of the precept fails to mention something that's very important, that if through our silence we have knowingly allowed misconduct or abuse to continue to occur, then by that very "silence" we have also become a willing participant in that misconduct or abuse.


There is the written letter... and the spirit in which it is given  :om:
I agree that my exact point to begin with,the majority of the Vinaya was never a set in stone thing,and the Buddha stated himself most of it could be reworked...or removed.

So when it is said gays could not be ordained as monks,because of blind devotion to minor Vinaya.....my reply was precepts such as those can be removed and SHOULD be removed,and the Buddha said all minor precepts can be removed.

(the 6th vow of the BNS was for not openly shameing people,it doesnt say you cannot correct them in private(also monks usually confess daily anyways)

Peace and Love

Offline moonbeam

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 06:38:58 pm »
Thank you for the replies, everybody. I've been feeling a bit raw last night, and just needed to come out with it.  Thank you.  :namaste:

Offline Alexey

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 08:11:54 pm »

The Brahma Net Sutra is the Bodhisattva precepts,the reason Tendai switched to them was for obvious reasons.....The Lotus sutra teaches that the Buddha only teaches Bodhisattvas,hence the removal of Shravaka precepts for the Bodhisattva precepts.

Unfortunately, it's just as easy to break a precept by recognizing the written letter and not the spirit in which it was given, compared to one who ignores the precept entirely and tosses it out the window --- the precepts from the Brahma Net Sutra are not exempt from this.


For example, the written letter of the sixth major precept states that a disciple of the Buddha must not broadcast the misdeeds or infractions of Bodhisattva clerics or laypersons, nor of ordinary monks and nuns, nor encourage others to do so, but the written letter of the precept fails to mention something that's very important, that if through our silence we have knowingly allowed misconduct or abuse to continue to occur, then by that very "silence" we have also become a willing participant in that misconduct or abuse.


There is the written letter... and the spirit in which it is given  :om:
I agree that my exact point to begin with,the majority of the Vinaya was never a set in stone thing,and the Buddha stated himself most of it could be reworked...or removed.

So when it is said gays could not be ordained as monks,because of blind devotion to minor Vinaya.....my reply was precepts such as those can be removed and SHOULD be removed,and the Buddha said all minor precepts can be removed.

(the 6th vow of the BNS was for not openly shameing people,it doesnt say you cannot correct them in private(also monks usually confess daily anyways)

Peace and Love

Have you some proofs, or it's just your opinion?
You can ask your question) - http://ask.fm/AlekseyKaverin

Suffering - should be understood
Origin of suffering - should be abandoned
Cessation of suffering - should be realised
The way leadding to cessation of suffering - should be developed

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 01:23:26 pm »
Quote
Alexey
Have you some proofs, or it's just your opinion?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html

under section 6
"After I am gone, the sangha — if it wants — may abolish the lesser & minor training rules.[7]

Monks only have to keep the Major Precepts (precepts that were given later and not based on fixed moral teaching were only added due to cercumstance and can be removed)

for instance the Buddha allowed for soldiers to be converted and become ordained as monks....but military leaders threaten to murder all the Sangha if soldiers continued to to be ordained as monks.....so under threat the Buddha gave the precept that it was forbbiden to ordain soldiers.........................if you actually read the Vinaya you will see that a good amount of those precepts were given to keep the Sangha from being attacked or harmed and had nothing to do with actual moral charachter.

some precepts as the one I gave above concerning soldiers was not even willfully given by the Buddha but was actually FORCED upon our Sangha by outsiders. and yet many others were given due to scandals and community outrage.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 02:14:26 pm by namumahaparinirvanasvaha, Reason: quotation mistake »

Offline Alexey

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2013, 08:08:47 pm »
Thanks!

note:
7. The Cullavagga (XI.9) tells of how the monks at the First Council could not agree on which rules should be classed as lesser & minor. Ven. Ananda himself confessed that he neglected to ask the Buddha on this point. One of the monks made a motion that — since many of the rules affect the laity, and the laity would look down on the monks for rescinding them after the Buddha's death — none of the rules should be rescinded. This motion was adopted by the Council.

Arahants of the First Counsil (Ananda, Maha Moggallana, etc etc) decided to keep all precepts spoken by Lord Buddha.

If precepts was established by Buddha, it's because they lead to peace in Sangha, protect Sangha, protect Dhamma etc. I think that we dont should try to 'overcome' or abolish what is discomfortable for our ego. Of corse everybody practice as he wish, by keepen Discipline, or by abolishing Discipline, but he should not preache abolishement of Discipline to others, and he should not preache negligence in Discipline to others.
Anyway, the one who is nigligent by his nature, will suffer in discipline and in anyway he will try to overcome Discipline, by all means that he have. So actually it change nothing.

Discipline is a source of happiness.
Mara suffer in discipline.
You can ask your question) - http://ask.fm/AlekseyKaverin

Suffering - should be understood
Origin of suffering - should be abandoned
Cessation of suffering - should be realised
The way leadding to cessation of suffering - should be developed

Offline francis

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 04:48:26 am »
Quote
Alexey
Have you some proofs, or it's just your opinion?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html

under section 6
"After I am gone, the sangha — if it wants — may abolish the lesser & minor training rules.[7]

Monks only have to keep the Major Precepts (precepts that were given later and not based on fixed moral teaching were only added due to cercumstance and can be removed)



Side issue. The problem with that statement is the Buddha never stipulated what were the the major issues or the minor issues that were to be abolished.  See foot note [7].

[7] The Cullavagga (XI.9) tells of how the monks at the First Council could not agree on which rules should be classed as lesser & minor. Ven. Ananda himself confessed that he neglected to ask the Buddha on this point. One of the monks made a motion that — since many of the rules affect the laity, and the laity would look down on the monks for rescinding them after the Buddha's death — none of the rules should be rescinded. This motion was adopted by the Council.

So, I don't know where you got the following information from.

Quote
for instance the Buddha allowed for soldiers to be converted and become ordained as monks....but military leaders threaten to murder all the Sangha if soldiers continued to to be ordained as monks.....so under threat the Buddha gave the precept that it was forbbiden to ordain soldiers.........................if you actually read the Vinaya you will see that a good amount of those precepts were given to keep the Sangha from being attacked or harmed and had nothing to do with actual moral charachter.

some precepts as the one I gave above concerning soldiers was not even willfully given by the Buddha but was actually FORCED upon our Sangha by outsiders. and yet many others were given due to scandals and community outrage.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 08:58:05 am »
Quote
Alexey
Have you some proofs, or it's just your opinion?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html

under section 6
"After I am gone, the sangha — if it wants — may abolish the lesser & minor training rules.[7]

Monks only have to keep the Major Precepts (precepts that were given later and not based on fixed moral teaching were only added due to cercumstance and can be removed)



Side issue. The problem with that statement is the Buddha never stipulated what were the the major issues or the minor issues that were to be abolished.  See foot note [7].

[7] The Cullavagga (XI.9) tells of how the monks at the First Council could not agree on which rules should be classed as lesser & minor. Ven. Ananda himself confessed that he neglected to ask the Buddha on this point. One of the monks made a motion that — since many of the rules affect the laity, and the laity would look down on the monks for rescinding them after the Buddha's death — none of the rules should be rescinded. This motion was adopted by the Council.

So, I don't know where you got the following information from.

Quote
for instance the Buddha allowed for soldiers to be converted and become ordained as monks....but military leaders threaten to murder all the Sangha if soldiers continued to to be ordained as monks.....so under threat the Buddha gave the precept that it was forbbiden to ordain soldiers.........................if you actually read the Vinaya you will see that a good amount of those precepts were given to keep the Sangha from being attacked or harmed and had nothing to do with actual moral charachter.

some precepts as the one I gave above concerning soldiers was not even willfully given by the Buddha but was actually FORCED upon our Sangha by outsiders. and yet many others were given due to scandals and community outrage.



I got that information/story from the Vinaya.

As far as the precepts are concerned...again the Buddha said the Sangha could get rid of the minor precpts..so if a Sangha wishes to get rid of those precepts....then it is in accord with the Buddhas last orders.
(again you neglect the Buddha left that up to the Sangha to decide after his passing)

If you dont think we should abandon the minor rules/precepts of the Vinaya then you are saying gays should not be ordained as monks.

(you do know the Vinaya minor rule/precepts outlaw ordaining gays dont you?)
(do you not think the minor Vinaya rule that outlaws ordaining gays should be abandoned?)

Have you actually ever read the Vinaya?
Most of the precepts were added later,some were forced upon our Sangha by kings-some precepts/rules were given to keep angry mobs of villagers from attacking the Sangha,some precpts were given due to scandals.

it was a scandal that caused gays to be banned from being ordained as Buddhist Monks......now dont you think we should remove such a rule?

The Buddha said we were more than welcome to remove it....So why Not?

Offline Dharmakara

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Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 09:59:13 am »
The Vinaya prohibition is specific to "abnormal gender" and not sexual orientation:

The prohibition for abnormal gender covers paṇḍakas and hermaphrodites. According to the Commentary, there are five kinds of paṇḍakas, two of whom do not come under this prohibition: voyeurs and those whose sexual fever is allayed by performing fellatio. The three who do come under this prohibition are: castrated men (eunuchs), those born neuter, and half-time paṇḍakas (those with the sexual desires of a paṇḍaka during the dark fortnight, and none during the bright fortnight (?)).

In the origin story for this prohibition, a paṇḍaka who had received Acceptance unsuccessfully propositioned some bhikkhus and novices, then succeeded in propositioning some horse- and elephant-trainers, who spread it about, "These Sakyan-son monks are paṇḍakas. And those among them who are not paṇḍakas molest paṇḍakas."


Source: BMC II - Chapter 14
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.ch14.html

Offline Alexey

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2013, 10:04:42 am »
I was wrong )
And actualy i'am happy to be wrong here, because it make occation to more peoples to practice well!  :namaste: :grouphug:
You can ask your question) - http://ask.fm/AlekseyKaverin

Suffering - should be understood
Origin of suffering - should be abandoned
Cessation of suffering - should be realised
The way leadding to cessation of suffering - should be developed

Offline francis

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 01:30:44 pm »
Quote
Alexey
Have you some proofs, or it's just your opinion?


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html

under section 6
"After I am gone, the sangha — if it wants — may abolish the lesser & minor training rules.[7]

Monks only have to keep the Major Precepts (precepts that were given later and not based on fixed moral teaching were only added due to cercumstance and can be removed)



Side issue. The problem with that statement is the Buddha never stipulated what were the the major issues or the minor issues that were to be abolished.  See foot note [7].

[7] The Cullavagga (XI.9) tells of how the monks at the First Council could not agree on which rules should be classed as lesser & minor. Ven. Ananda himself confessed that he neglected to ask the Buddha on this point. One of the monks made a motion that — since many of the rules affect the laity, and the laity would look down on the monks for rescinding them after the Buddha's death — none of the rules should be rescinded. This motion was adopted by the Council.

So, I don't know where you got the following information from.

Quote
for instance the Buddha allowed for soldiers to be converted and become ordained as monks....but military leaders threaten to murder all the Sangha if soldiers continued to to be ordained as monks.....so under threat the Buddha gave the precept that it was forbbiden to ordain soldiers.........................if you actually read the Vinaya you will see that a good amount of those precepts were given to keep the Sangha from being attacked or harmed and had nothing to do with actual moral charachter.

some precepts as the one I gave above concerning soldiers was not even willfully given by the Buddha but was actually FORCED upon our Sangha by outsiders. and yet many others were given due to scandals and community outrage.



I got that information/story from the Vinaya.

As far as the precepts are concerned...again the Buddha said the Sangha could get rid of the minor precpts..so if a Sangha wishes to get rid of those precepts....then it is in accord with the Buddhas last orders.
(again you neglect the Buddha left that up to the Sangha to decide after his passing)

If you dont think we should abandon the minor rules/precepts of the Vinaya then you are saying gays should not be ordained as monks.

(you do know the Vinaya minor rule/precepts outlaw ordaining gays dont you?)
(do you not think the minor Vinaya rule that outlaws ordaining gays should be abandoned?)

Have you actually ever read the Vinaya?
Most of the precepts were added later,some were forced upon our Sangha by kings-some precepts/rules were given to keep angry mobs of villagers from attacking the Sangha,some precpts were given due to scandals.

it was a scandal that caused gays to be banned from being ordained as Buddhist Monks......now dont you think we should remove such a rule?

The Buddha said we were more than welcome to remove it....So why Not?


Side issue. I’d suggest you story is wrong.  There was a lot of controversy over the Buddha words on major and minor rules, as indicated in your quote, foot note 7.

I have made no comments on gays. So please don’t infer that I have.  I don't see why anyone cannot be a Buddhist. If people follow the path, gender/sexual orientation issues fall by the way side.  I'm just commenting on how people are making stuff up to suit their own purposes.

Quote
The Buddha said we were more than welcome to remove it....So why Not?


Because you made that up about the rules, it's a total fabrication, that's why. 


"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

 


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