Author Topic: The fifth precept.  (Read 991 times)

Offline openmind

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2017, 04:41:22 am »
francis says
"People can become awakened through many different means, but the Buddha taught the way to sustain that awakening."

How many of his followers did it just like the "buddha"? In 200 years after his death, i wonder how many people refined his teachings, and how many people added a bunch of crap to his teachings, making it impossible to escape the con job they insist that you follow. Those that kept refining the teachings refined it to the end...THERE IS NO PATH.


Hi there openmind, I’m not sure where you angry towards Buddhism comes from, but I’m sorry to hear you have lost the path.

The Buddha was a pretty switched on person when it came to understanding human nature, and he warned of false teachings (con jobs) in the future. You can read more in the following suttas:

Anagata-bhayani Sutta: The Discourse on Future Dangers (3) AN 5.79

Anagata-bhayani Sutta: The Discourse on Future Dangers (4) AN 5.80


My anger is not towards "buddhism", it is the kinds of people like you who never found the path. I will do my very best to help you realize that you have bought and given your freedom to truly know yourself by hiding in a religion. At some point one must let go of the vehicle that brought them so far, and go on their own. Not the way anybody taught, but by what you truly are. Did Buddha say to believe that he was enlightened? No, because that would have put another label on his knowing that there is no description, or exactly the same means to awaken. I have said enough about this, get it or not, I will not shake the secure tree you are hiding in.
I do not have conversations with dogmatic religion followers. Done.

Offline francis

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2017, 06:34:21 am »
Hi francis. "Or you could just follow the teaching of the historic Buddha, without the personal embellishments that lead to the long and irregular path."

Makes a lot of sense to me. I think I oversimplified, but wanted to make the point that we can all become enlightened by meditating, or even just sitting. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that a lifetime of doing that will bring enlightenment, which is why we can all do with a bit of help from the Buddha.

Hi stillpointdancer, thanks for the clarification. What you say makes a lot of sense. There are no guarantees, and we can all do with a bit of help from the Buddha. To me, that means having a little Buddhist faith (saddha). That is the confidence to put the Buddha’s teachings into practice, prior to realising all their truths for ourselves.

 :namaste:
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 07:17:04 am by francis »
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline francis

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2017, 07:53:22 am »
My anger is not towards "buddhism", it is the kinds of people like you who never found the path. I will do my very best to help you realize that you have bought and given your freedom to truly know yourself by hiding in a religion. At some point one must let go of the vehicle that brought them so far, and go on their own. Not the way anybody taught, but by what you truly are. Did Buddha say to believe that he was enlightened? No, because that would have put another label on his knowing that there is no description, or exactly the same means to awaken. I have said enough about this, get it or not, I will not shake the secure tree you are hiding in.

I do not have conversations with dogmatic religion followers. Done.

Hi there openmind,

Thanks for the offer to find the path, but I think you have made a few assumptions along the way. I see Buddhism as a philosophy, not a religion. As a western (secular) Buddhist I am not tied to any particular tradition, though only a fool would discount the Buddha’s wisdom as recorded in the Pali Canon.

You have to actually cross the stream before you let go of the boat (vehicle). Prior to entering the stream, you have to know what you truly are (anatta). And yes, most people need to be taught anatta, it’s counterintuitive and a major stumbling block on the path.

I don’t think the Buddha had to prove his enlightenment, as people could see that for themselves.

Accusations of dogma go both ways, and I wouldn’t be one to hide in a tree from a good discussion.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline lobsang~gazom

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2017, 08:17:02 am »
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies, I do drink mindfully and I did take vows with my Rinpoche but I requested a private one on one with him to discuss my concerns. Because at the time of the vows it was said the obstaining from alcohol didn't have to be part of refuge, so he is best person to discuss it with I think.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2017, 08:49:25 am »
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies, I do drink mindfully and I did take vows with my Rinpoche but I requested a private one on one with him to discuss my concerns. Because at the time of the vows it was said the obstaining from alcohol didn't have to be part of refuge, so he is best person to discuss it with I think.

Good idea to get with your teacher on this.

Offline pureleaf

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2017, 08:10:14 pm »
Quote from: stillpointdancer
I wanted to make the point that we can all become enlightened by meditating, or even just sitting.

How? Why?
You haven't thought this through…

Reading the suttas is better.

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2017, 01:09:30 am »
Quote from: stillpointdancer
I wanted to make the point that we can all become enlightened by meditating, or even just sitting.

How? Why?
You haven't thought this through…

Reading the suttas is better.

Yes I have. My view is that meditation is central to the enlightenment process. I guess it is possible for some to become enlightened merely through reading the suttas, but that's not what happened to the Buddha who, in my understanding, gained enlightenment when he sat under a Bodhi tree. My insights have come from a mixture of studying the Dharma and sitting in meditation, so it works for me.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline pureleaf

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2017, 06:49:27 am »
Buddha thought he wouldn't be able to teach anyone.

He wasn't concerned they wouldn't be able to meditate.

Rather he thought it was very difficult to understand.

Offline si2

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2017, 08:36:25 am »
Hi, what is everyone's take on the fifth precept, taking no intoxicants. Does everyone take it as completely literal? I've read many different opinions on it by monks and nuns and lay people alike.


I guess that any intoxicants (note the "toxic" element) that increase the possibility of heedlessness (i.e. not mindful) is a barrier to the practice of the noble 8-fold path (if that's what you want to do).

Suramerayamajja pamadatthana ......   

The first part is to do with fermented liquors ( sura) and distilled ( merya) or intoxicants ( majja ) followed by pretty much anything which reduces mindfulness ( pama datthana )

For my own point of view, I don't drink or take drugs.  if I am offered a small glass of champagne at a wedding though I don't normally refuse if there is not another option available :-)

Si
“All Experiences are preceded by mind, having mind as their master, created by the mind.”

http://www.addhanamagga.uk/

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2017, 09:34:44 am »
Hi, what is everyone's take on the fifth precept, taking no intoxicants. Does everyone take it as completely literal? I've read many different opinions on it by monks and nuns and lay people alike.


I guess that any intoxicants (note the "toxic" element) that increase the possibility of heedlessness (i.e. not mindful) is a barrier to the practice of the noble 8-fold path (if that's what you want to do).


Not necessarily.  Having a scotch or sharing a joint may leed to heedlessness, but so can walking (if done right).  It's been my experienc that in exceedingly rare occasions, I bit of pot has actually enhanced mindfullness although I don't endorse it.  I've had wine while in sadhana practice with no ill effact.  In fact some sadhana practices actually include the consumption of intoxicants.


Quote
The first part is to do with fermented liquors ( sura) and distilled ( merya) or intoxicants ( majja ) followed by pretty much anything which reduces mindfulness ( pama datthana )

Put that way, it could include just about anything.

Quote
For my own point of view, I don't drink or take drugs.

That's great.  I have the occasional after dinner drink or beer when I get home.  I also do a few bong hits when the mood strikes me.   I'm usually not to interested in being mindful at such times.  That level of concentration - constant - I find to be exhausting, plus it's impossible to do anyway.

Plus I am alergic to rules governing my life.  :lmfao:
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 09:49:08 am by IdleChater »

Offline si2

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2017, 09:53:06 am »


Plus I am alergic to rules governing my life.  :lmfao:

Completely up to you of course, but I found after I tried the "rules" and then established a practice it was then my preference not to do it rather than blindly following a rule :-)

Each to their own, however as I said, I find drink/drugs "... a barrier to the practice of the noble 8-fold path (if that's what you want to do)."  Simples.

From the Buddhist monastic code:

Discipline is for the sake of restraint,
restraint for the sake of freedom from remorse,
freedom from remorse for the sake of joy,
joy for the sake of rapture...


Si
“All Experiences are preceded by mind, having mind as their master, created by the mind.”

http://www.addhanamagga.uk/

Offline Kodo308

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2017, 01:15:55 pm »
Hi, what is everyone's take on the fifth precept, taking no intoxicants. Does everyone take it as completely literal? I've read many different opinions​ on it by monks and nuns and lay people alike.

I gave up drink for over five years but last year when I was riddled with anxiety I took  a drink to calm my thinking and now I continue​ to drink for same reason, only moderately and am always mindful when doing so.

I saw the anxiety as more of an intoxicant to my mind that the drink I took and many writings I've read on the subject would agree. Love to hear other people's thoughts.


Hi Lobsang,

I don't know if you're still following this thread, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.

I think this precept turns on the word intoxicant. Altho' traditionally this precept refers to alcohol & drugs, it can also be construed to mean anything that helps you avoid being present with yourself in this moment, be it alcohol, reading, video gaming. So, as you describe your use of alcohol, you are avoiding your anxious self, cultivating heedlessness, rather than using it as a vehicle for realizing the Buddha's teachings. So, while it may be helpful in your day to day life to avoid that state of being, as a practice in the long run it doesn't serve the path, IMHO.

There is a flip side to each of the precepts, the positive statement of them, rather than prohibitions. For the precept against intoxication it is:  I vow to cultivate mindfulness. And the Bodhidharma precept states it thus, "In the midst of the intrinsically pure Dharma, not being blinded by ignorance is called the precept of not intoxicating oneself or others."

So, while you state that you are mindfully using alcohol, are you mindful of the habit mind that is arising? Anxiety->discomfort->avoidance->alcohol intake?

Of course, anxiety is a very uncomfortable experience. And it is reasonable & right to want to end it. However, alcohol strikes me as a very short term source of 'happiness', when there are better methods available.

It might be more helpful, long term, to understand the roots of your anxiety, the mental formations that give rise to it.

  :namaste: :namaste: :namaste:

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The fifth precept.
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2017, 03:39:10 pm »
Each to their own, however as I said, I find drink/drugs "... a barrier to the practice of the noble 8-fold path (if that's what you want to do)." 

I don't deliberately try to follow the N8FP.  I don't think that's what it's there for.

I have a friend who teaches at Naropa and is highly respected translator.  She gave a lecture I attended and in it she said another way to translate the so-called N8FP is "The Eightfold Path of the Noble Ones"  "Noble Ones" refers to the Buddhas of the 10 directions and 3 times.  The path, in that context, is that of a Buddha.  Only a Buddha can do all those things in a perfect manner.  Seeing it that way, I find little point in attempting to do all this "right" stuff.  Practicing the Paramitas makes far more sense.

 


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