Author Topic: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma  (Read 472 times)

Offline Solodris

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2017, 04:32:18 am »
Not understanding intention of oneself, understanding the game set the rules of the game. By not being a hot dog dealer, but learning and teaching a set of skills.

Is Nyom Solodris in hurry? He/she could possible form this in manners of lines of cause and effect, could't he/she? Taking a big breath.

Learning the Dhamma to its deepest point is skilfull practice, one must share merit to even the skills attained by Dhamma-practice, then the Tathagata becomes living to the measure of exploring the deepening in the emptiness of Dhamma-skilfull practice. The elders become the elders of the elders in exploring the set of skills that dives into the emptiness of the emptiness of the Dhamma.

Diving into this emptiness give rise to the Tathagata, and the Tathagata teaches by sharing merit. This is the game, this is the rules of the game beyond the realm of the Devas.

Offline ground

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2017, 04:39:53 am »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.

I say bugger behaving like an adult and having rational discourse.  Life is too short.

I follow the Dharma For Those Who Won't Grow up
your choice.

Offline ground

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2017, 04:51:08 am »
In the Kalama sutta he says "when you know for yourself" but he never says how one comes to know for oneself. He talks of "the wise" but he never says how one comes to know for oneself who is wise and who is unwise or ignorant.

His sermon to  the Kalamas is a sermon for those who can only follow the herd and/or believe the self-proclaimed 'wise'.

you are the Kalamas and I do not care. I have nothing to teach you.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 04:54:14 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2017, 05:20:48 am »
Not understanding intention of oneself, understanding the game set the rules of the game. By not being a hot dog dealer, but learning and teaching a set of skills.


Is Nyom Solodris in hurry? He/she could possible form this in manners of lines of cause and effect, could't he/she? Taking a big breath.


Learning the Dhamma to its deepest point is skilfull practice, one must share merit to even the skills attained by Dhamma-practice, then the Tathagata becomes living to the measure of exploring the deepening in the emptiness of Dhamma-skilfull practice. The elders become the elders of the elders in exploring the set of skills that dives into the emptiness of the emptiness of the Dhamma.

Diving into this emptiness give rise to the Tathagata, and the Tathagata teaches by sharing merit. This is the game, this is the rules of the game beyond the realm of the Devas.


Quote
Macchariya Suttas: Stinginess

"Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; incapable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings], stinginess as to one's family [of supporters], stinginess as to one's gains, stinginess as to one's status, and ingratitude. Without abandoning these five qualities, one is incapable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; one is incapable realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship.

"With the abandoning of these five qualities, [giving place to receive the Dhamma at the heart] one is capable of entering & remaining in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana; capable of realizing the fruit of stream-entry... the fruit of once-returning... the fruit of non-returning... arahantship...


Laying aside desire after Union and the holding on Dhammas, the Tathagata remains.

Mudita

Merit: A Study Guide

The Road to Nirvana Is Paved with Skillful Intentions
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:25:06 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2017, 05:34:41 am »
In the Kalama sutta he says "when you know for yourself" but he never says how one comes to know for oneself.

How could he, aside of the long list of samples to teach ways of judgement in the Sutta

He talks of "the wise" but he never says how one comes to know for oneself who is wise and who is unwise or ignorant.

Don't say so. Starting by himselves he gave planty of teachings how to recognice (even in the Kalama Sutta). Livelihood, how one maintains his existence, is here a focus matter for choice.

Quote
His sermon to  the Kalamas is a sermon for those who can only follow the herd and/or believe the self-proclaimed 'wise'.

Not at all.

Quote
you are the Kalamas and I do not care. I have nothing to teach you.

Blessed if able to hear the Buddhas advices, being a Kalama, and increase thereby faith torward the wise.
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Offline ground

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2017, 05:40:50 am »
In the Kalama sutta he says "when you know for yourself" but he never says how one comes to know for oneself.

How could he, aside of the long list of samples to teach ways of judgement in the Sutta

He talks of "the wise" but he never says how one comes to know for oneself who is wise and who is unwise or ignorant.

Don't say so. Starting by himselves he gave planty of teachings how to recognice (even in the Kalama Sutta). Livelihood, how one maintains his existence, is here a focus matter for choice.

Quote
His sermon to  the Kalamas is a sermon for those who can only follow the herd and/or believe the self-proclaimed 'wise'.

Not at all.

Quote
you are the Kalamas and I do not care. I have nothing to teach you.

Blessed if able to hear the Buddhas advices, being a Kalama, and increase thereby faith torward the wise.


your words prove my thesis:
His sermon to  the Kalamas is a sermon for those who can only follow the herd and/or believe the self-proclaimed 'wise'.

you have mentioned nothing that can be used to know for oneself. you are appealing to mere belief, the belief of the buddhist herd.

However I say: it is only rational analysis that causes valid knowledge. Only through rational analysis one comes to know for oneself.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 05:45:38 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2017, 05:55:56 am »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 06:01:37 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2017, 06:01:45 am »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 06:05:18 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2017, 06:08:14 am »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
So Ground assumes that the distinction between adult and child lies in a education to think in certain rational convention? That would be again an really empty statement of no use, or does he like to decorate this voidness of advice?

Rational thinking educated counted to a cast. So what else after the own tail Ground runs after?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 06:11:03 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2017, 06:13:33 am »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
So Ground assumes that the distinction between adult and child lies in a education to think in certain rational convention? That would be again an really empty statement of no use.

Well, since I have written 'provided an adult who has been ...' there are also adults who behave like children.

What is childish behaviour? It is to be guided by emotions, guided by wishing and hoping, guided by fear and beliefs and not being able to apply rationality to overcome emotions, to overcome wishful thinking and hoping, to overcome fear and beliefs.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2017, 06:29:46 am »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
So Ground assumes that the distinction between adult and child lies in a education to think in certain rational convention? That would be again an really empty statement of no use.

Well, since I have written 'provided an adult who has been ...' there are also adults who behave like children.

What is childish behaviour? It is to be guided by emotions, guided by wishing and hoping, guided by fear and beliefs and not being able to apply rationality to overcome emotions, to overcome wishful thinking and hoping, to overcome fear and beliefs.

Such requires faith at first place. Never having seen the effects of walking like an adult, it's meaningless to give up the cause of the path at first place.

And knowing for one self does not derive from ratio but fromseeing. Just in case of judging a teacher in advanced it does, to turn away for what is rational nonsens (like dwelling in emptiness next a refrigerator and filling it). Therefore the samples to learn that, to the Kalamas, in that regard and the sutta ends with having given possibility to develope faith. And seemingly faith in the Gems had been developed.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 06:35:13 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2017, 10:48:52 am »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
So Ground assumes that the distinction between adult and child lies in a education to think in certain rational convention? That would be again an really empty statement of no use.

Well, since I have written 'provided an adult who has been ...' there are also adults who behave like children.

What is childish behaviour? It is to be guided by emotions, guided by wishing and hoping, guided by fear and beliefs and not being able to apply rationality to overcome emotions, to overcome wishful thinking and hoping, to overcome fear and beliefs.

Such requires faith at first place.
I had faith in my intellectual capabilitities and that led to imperturbable certainty based on rational analysis.

Never having seen the effects of walking like an adult, it's meaningless to give up the cause of the path at first place.
There is no cause in the sense that followers of causal paths think.


And knowing for one self does not derive from ratio but fromseeing.
Seeing as a case of direct perception, yes.

Just in case of judging a teacher in advanced it does, to turn away for what is rational nonsens (like dwelling in emptiness next a refrigerator and filling it). Therefore the samples to learn that, to the Kalamas, in that regard and the sutta ends with having given possibility to develope faith. And seemingly faith in the Gems had been developed.
Here you are again. Good old Hanzze that never changes.  :teehee: I am not one of the Kalamas and will never be. So please direct your sermons to the Kalamas, not to me.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2017, 04:46:55 pm »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
So Ground assumes that the distinction between adult and child lies in a education to think in certain rational convention? That would be again an really empty statement of no use.

Well, since I have written 'provided an adult who has been ...' there are also adults who behave like children.

What is childish behaviour? It is to be guided by emotions, guided by wishing and hoping, guided by fear and beliefs and not being able to apply rationality to overcome emotions, to overcome wishful thinking and hoping, to overcome fear and beliefs.

Such requires faith at first place.
I had faith in my intellectual capabilitities and that led to imperturbable certainty based on rational analysis.
And where did it brought you aside of a skill to maintain certain sankharas? Still holding on house.

Never having seen the effects of walking like an adult, it's meaningless to give up the cause of the path at first place.
There is no cause in the sense that followers of causal paths think.
6 years before Ground had been wiser

And knowing for one self does not derive from ratio but fromseeing.
Seeing as a case of direct perception, yes.
No, perception (saññā) is not seeing. Just a "Vor-stellung" of a remembered matter.
Just in case of judging a teacher in advanced it does, to turn away for what is rational nonsens (like dwelling in emptiness next a refrigerator and filling it). Therefore the samples to learn that, to the Kalamas, in that regard and the sutta ends with having given possibility to develope faith. And seemingly faith in the Gems had been developed.
Here you are again. Good old Hanzze that never changes.  :teehee: I am not one of the Kalamas and will never be. So please direct your sermons to the Kalamas, not to me.
So you are One... a never be One, our both, spontaneously running away. That's the Nature of mind having found emptiness in ignorance, dwelling in maya. Of course Ground is more of the preachers approaching them occationly.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 10:33:56 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2017, 10:37:11 pm »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
So Ground assumes that the distinction between adult and child lies in a education to think in certain rational convention? That would be again an really empty statement of no use.

Well, since I have written 'provided an adult who has been ...' there are also adults who behave like children.

What is childish behaviour? It is to be guided by emotions, guided by wishing and hoping, guided by fear and beliefs and not being able to apply rationality to overcome emotions, to overcome wishful thinking and hoping, to overcome fear and beliefs.

Such requires faith at first place.
I had faith in my intellectual capabilitities and that led to imperturbable certainty based on rational analysis.
And where did it brought you aside of a skill to maintain certain sankharas? Still holding on house.
I am liberated and there is nothing more to do. Everything is perfect.

Never having seen the effects of walking like an adult, it's meaningless to give up the cause of the path at first place.
There is no cause in the sense that followers of causal paths think.
6 year before Groun had been wiser
I've been already liberated then but I just did not know.

And knowing for one self does not derive from ratio but fromseeing.
Seeing as a case of direct perception, yes.
No, perception (saññā) is not seeing. Just a "Vor-stellung" of a remembered matter.
There are several kinds of direct perception. One category is introspection and the other sense perception. And among sense perceptions 'seeing' is one of five.

Just in case of judging a teacher in advanced it does, to turn away for what is rational nonsens (like dwelling in emptiness next a refrigerator and filling it). Therefore the samples to learn that, to the Kalamas, in that regard and the sutta ends with having given possibility to develope faith. And seemingly faith in the Gems had been developed.
Quote
Here you are again. Good old Hanzze that never changes.  :teehee: I am not one of the Kalamas and will never be. So please direct your sermons to the Kalamas, not to me.
So you are One... a never be One, our both, spontaneously running away. That's the Nature of mind having found emptiness in ignorance, dwelling in maya. Of course Ground is more of the preachers approaching them occationly.
[/quote]


I have nothing to teach. I am expressing 'my self' here. People may read, think about, ignore or reject my expressions. Certainty does not depend on how people react to the expression of what one knows for oneself.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 10:42:35 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Adult Dhamma vs. Special Dhamma
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2017, 11:00:16 pm »
Adult behaviour is to spare nothing from rational analysis.
yes, provided an adult who has been educated according to current common knowledge and who has learned in school to think rationally.
This cannot be assumed to be the case with children. So 'adult' here is not meant to denigrate children

To the Kalama the Buddha taught, that it is of less value to follow those who do not see the tree because of so much forest in their proclaimed refrigerator-emptiness. Seeing just words, they (some of them) would possible turn from the "alike" to those actually leading a holly live and do what they proclaim by the means of a given path of maintain.
you are entitled to your elitist thinking but that has nothing to do with rational thinking.
So Ground assumes that the distinction between adult and child lies in a education to think in certain rational convention? That would be again an really empty statement of no use.

Well, since I have written 'provided an adult who has been ...' there are also adults who behave like children.

What is childish behaviour? It is to be guided by emotions, guided by wishing and hoping, guided by fear and beliefs and not being able to apply rationality to overcome emotions, to overcome wishful thinking and hoping, to overcome fear and beliefs.

Such requires faith at first place.
I had faith in my intellectual capabilitities and that led to imperturbable certainty based on rational analysis.
And where did it brought you aside of a skill to maintain certain sankharas? Still holding on house.
I am liberated and there is nothing more to do. Everything is perfect.

Never having seen the effects of walking like an adult, it's meaningless to give up the cause of the path at first place.
There is no cause in the sense that followers of causal paths think.
6 year before Groun had been wiser
I've been already liberated then but I just did not know.

And knowing for one self does not derive from ratio but fromseeing.
Seeing as a case of direct perception, yes.
No, perception (saññā) is not seeing. Just a "Vor-stellung" of a remembered matter.
There are several kinds of direct perception. One category is introspection and the other sense perception. And among sense perceptions 'seeing' is one of five.

Just in case of judging a teacher in advanced it does, to turn away for what is rational nonsens (like dwelling in emptiness next a refrigerator and filling it). Therefore the samples to learn that, to the Kalamas, in that regard and the sutta ends with having given possibility to develope faith. And seemingly faith in the Gems had been developed.
Quote
Here you are again. Good old Hanzze that never changes.  :teehee: I am not one of the Kalamas and will never be. So please direct your sermons to the Kalamas, not to me.

So you are One... a never be One, our both, spontaneously running away. That's the Nature of mind having found emptiness in ignorance, dwelling in maya. Of course Ground is more of the preachers approaching them occationly.


I have nothing to teach. I am expressing 'my self' here. People may read, think about, ignore or reject my expressions. Certainty does not depend on how people react to the expression of what one knows for oneself.

While never had another thought of Ground, like he expressed in the last sentence and one attentive can see his mostly noble intention, at least my person has also reason to be grateful: In regard of his idea that he had finished his work (he had that idea already 6 years ago) my person "fears" that he might gravely overestimate him self. That's why suggesting, give it simple a prove and close the door leaving the key inside.
The approach is not a matter of pulling but a matter of responsibility and estimate, gratitude and Anerkennung.

Let Atma tell him that even the first path is not secured for now for him, meaning that still able to make crave mistakes.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 11:10:41 pm by Samana Johann »
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