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A Mosaic of Traditions - One Virtual Sangha => The Dharma Express => Topic started by: nirmal on February 26, 2011, 08:36:52 am

Title: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: nirmal on February 26, 2011, 08:36:52 am
All doctrines preach about care and love for the family especially the aged but Buddha left his family and got enlightenment.

What could we learn from this?

Did he prove the doctrines of all religions wrong?

Was it selfish of him to abandon his wife and child in order to seek enlightenment?

 
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: Sunya on February 26, 2011, 09:13:54 am
It's completely fair to question the Buddha's decision to abandon wife and child. On initial inspection, it may seem selfish and irresponsible. Yet in a way, his decision to leave was a utilitarian act. It was a sacrifice made for a larger cause. How could he be of greatest service to others? Not by devoting his attention solely to his family and their material well being. This is not to say he had no respect or care for his wife and son; only that his love was beyond physical. He needed to break his selfish attachment to them in order to cultivate undiscriminating compassion.

Although his original intent was to free himself from suffering - which can be interpreted as a selfish wish if it involves abandoning wife and child while benefiting only oneself - soon after his awakening he chose to teach others how to free themselves from suffering as well. He later returned to his family, although not in the same role as before, and they subsequently joined him in the Sangha. In some suttas, the Buddha instructs his adult son Rahula on aspects of the Dhamma. He inducts his wife Yasodhara as a bhikkhuni. Both are said to have become arahants.

If his choice was ultimately selfish, he would have been incapable of enlightenment. He had no malicious intent to cause them suffering. Leaving them could even have helped not only himself, but also his wife and son learn non-attachment. It sets an example that proves how love is not of the nature we think it to be in our mundane lives.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: Tsongkhapafan on February 26, 2011, 09:34:35 am
Many people in relationships stay together out of attachment.  Buddha was demonstrating a complete lack of attachment and did the right thing.  Many Mahayanists believe that Buddha was already enlightened, but according to common appearances, he was not and he left his family to seek enlightenment for the benefit of all living beings.  The needs of the many are always more important than the needs of the few.  There would be little value in Buddha staying with his wife and child when he could achieve enlightenment to benefit them  as well as all other living beings.

It's like the following analogy.  If your family was living in poverty, but you had some skills that could make you all rich but you needed to make the right connections to be able to do so, out of love you would leave your family and go and seek employment.  Later, when you had become rich, you would return to your family and share with them the riches you had gained so that they could be as wealthy as you.  This is what Buddha did; and he did it out of love for universal family, all living beings.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: J. McKenna on February 26, 2011, 12:18:00 pm
The Buddha left his previous life, abandoning wife, child, family, and tradition on a quest or obsession.  Recall that he wasn't the Buddha then but Prince Siddhārtha Gautama. Later, the Buddha was born as were the doctrines and traditions that became Buddhism.  His abandonment was typical of Humans, he learned much after that.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: nirmal on February 26, 2011, 01:14:07 pm
Many people in relationships stay together out of attachment.  Buddha was demonstrating a complete lack of attachment and did the right thing.  Many Mahayanists believe that Buddha was already enlightened, but according to common appearances, he was not and he left his family to seek enlightenment for the benefit of all living beings.  The needs of the many are always more important than the needs of the few.  There would be little value in Buddha staying with his wife and child when he could achieve enlightenment to benefit them  as well as all other living beings.

It's like the following analogy.  If your family was living in poverty, but you had some skills that could make you all rich but you needed to make the right connections to be able to do so, out of love you would leave your family and go and seek employment.  Later, when you had become rich, you would return to your family and share with them the riches you had gained so that they could be as wealthy as you.  This is what Buddha did; and he did it out of love for universal family, all living beings.

Milarepa gave us a hint in his song

When my mother lived, I had gone away
When I came home, my mother had passed away
Little profit even though we could both stay
I should like to live in cave and pray
When the house stood firm, the master was away
When the master came back, the house broken lay
Little profit even though we could both stay
So I would like to live in cave and pray
Parents native place and my home
All empty and nothing handsome
Those fools may enjoy all of them
But I should like to overcome

"My path is called total self-abnegation for the purpose of attaining Buddhahood in one lifetime and to attain Buddhahood thus we must scatter this life's aim and objects to the wind" - Milarepa
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: Monkey Mind on February 26, 2011, 01:43:11 pm
Besides, at some point his wife, son, adopted mother, cousin... The whole family took up robes. It can hardly be said he abandoned them...
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: santamonicacj on February 26, 2011, 08:15:14 pm
Besides, at some point his wife, son, adopted mother, cousin... The whole family took up robes. It can hardly be said he abandoned them...
That was much later of course.

The upshot is that it all worked out. If he had failed in his quest he would have just been another idealistic seeker that ran out on his responsibilities. Presumably they were wealthy enough that they did not lack for food and shelter, but still. Evidently he didn't fail however. And as Shakespeare said, "All's Well That Ends Well". Come to think of it that sounds like a pithy summation Dzogchen and Zen to me.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: nirmal on February 27, 2011, 07:11:50 am
I wouldn't be able to do what Buddha had done.I couldn't leave my family because I have attachments.I'm pinned down as my youngest son is still in the U.Then again many have gained Enlightenment while still being in this attached state because of diligence in practice. I have six people in my group who have gained Enlightenment(I'm not one of them).Gurus can help us along the path,books can guide us and we can learn from Buddha's experience.Thus Enlightenment can be gained while still having attachments.
We  can also gain Enlightenment while still working and looking for money and living in a semi-attached state that is as a simple human being.

Am I wrong in having such thoughts?
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: pickledpitbull on February 27, 2011, 08:59:27 am
Nirmal,

I don't think you're wrong at all.  How is living amongst those we love not Nirvana?

Enlightenment does not require being sequestered in a monastery.  It's right where you are.  Now, in the present.

Metta

Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: LastLegend on February 27, 2011, 05:09:27 pm
I wouldn't be able to do what Buddha had done.I couldn't leave my family because I have attachments.I'm pinned down as my youngest son is still in the U.Then again many have gained Enlightenment while still being in this attached state because of diligence in practice. I have six people in my group who have gained Enlightenment(I'm not one of them).Gurus can help us along the path,books can guide us and we can learn from Buddha's experience.Thus Enlightenment can be gained while still having attachments.
We  can also gain Enlightenment while still working and looking for money and living in a semi-attached state that is as a simple human being.

Am I wrong in having such thoughts?

It is not the right time now
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: J. McKenna on February 27, 2011, 05:38:49 pm
I wouldn't be able to do what Buddha had done.I couldn't leave .......

Am I wrong in having such thoughts?
You are you and not him. You will do what you are to do, when you are to do it. Do not strive to be like another be true to your nature. Nothing wrong with that and if there were, nothing could be done about it anyway!
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: Disney Land on February 27, 2011, 09:33:53 pm
Without his sacrifice for all families of the past, present and future, nobody really know true love and care. Upon his successful search and attainment of enlightenment, his family were liberated and attained the same level as well. Only after his attainment, doctrines of various means of love and care were documented to benefit even more sentient beings    :anjali:
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: nirmal on February 28, 2011, 12:03:57 am
Without his sacrifice for all families of the past, present and future, nobody really know true love and care. Upon his successful search and attainment of enlightenment, his family were liberated and attained the same level as well. Only after his attainment, doctrines of various means of love and care were documented to benefit even more sentient beings    :anjali:

We can ease financial worries and career demands by simplifying our own lifestyle and adjusting our priorities.

We can fulfill our life purpose of attaining Buddhahood while also devoting time and attention to our family.

Could we not?
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: LastLegend on February 28, 2011, 12:15:33 am
[quote author=nirmal link=topic=2402.msg37149#msg37149
We can ease financial worries and career demands by simplifying our own lifestyle and adjusting our priorities.

We can fulfill our life purpose of attaining Buddhahood while also devoting time and attention to our family.

Could we not?
[/quote]

Caring for family is Dharma.

I understand we want to look up to Buddha as a role model. However, he was extraordinary.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: nirmal on February 28, 2011, 12:41:11 am
[quote author=nirmal link=topic=2402.msg37149#msg37149
We can ease financial worries and career demands by simplifying our own lifestyle and adjusting our priorities.

We can fulfill our life purpose of attaining Buddhahood while also devoting time and attention to our family.

Could we not?

Caring for family is Dharma.

I understand we want to look up to Buddha as a role model. However, he was extraordinary.
[/quote]

His sacrifice was great in leaving his family and living with extreme simplicity, poverty and chastity.We live in a challenging world with a challenging economy. Some couples have to work day and night to survive.Some work non=stop to support a luxury lifestyle.
We work too but by reducing our desires and living in a simple and meaningful way and putting Buddhism into daily practice, we could also gain Enlightenment right from under our rooftops.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: LastLegend on February 28, 2011, 12:57:03 am
Quote from: nirmal link=topic=2402.msg37151#msg37151
His sacrifice was great in leaving his family and living with extreme simplicity, poverty and chastity.We live in a challenging world with a challenging economy. Some couples have to work day and night to survive.Some work non=stop to support a luxury lifestyle.
We work too but by reducing our desires and living in a simple and meaningful way and putting Buddhism into daily practice, we could also gain Enlightenment right from under our rooftops.

It would be chaos if every Buddhist abandons his/her family. Buddha would not approve of this if he were here.

In my opinion, it is not encouraged unless the desire to seek enlightenment is like that desire of Gautama.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: Disney Land on February 28, 2011, 01:07:20 am
Without his sacrifice for all families of the past, present and future, nobody really know true love and care. Upon his successful search and attainment of enlightenment, his family were liberated and attained the same level as well. Only after his attainment, doctrines of various means of love and care were documented to benefit even more sentient beings    :anjali:

We can ease financial worries and career demands by simplifying our own lifestyle and adjusting our priorities.

We can fulfill our life purpose of attaining Buddhahood while also devoting time and attention to our family.

Could we not?
Simplifying lifestyle in the way of reducing unnecessary spending based on fruit of past dana planting, and it does not stop you from enjoying the delights of external development with spending alot if you wish to  <3

Your family is a buddha same as you, there is no conflict of interest in pure wisdom. Nonetheless, there is a bigger families that has to look into for the general interest of a wider public, and the monks and nuns plays a very important role on this aspect :namaste:
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: dhammaseeker51 on February 28, 2011, 03:27:00 am
Is there any proof in the suttas that the Buddha-to-be viewed leaving the household life as a sacrifice?
From what I've read he left to gain a deeper understanding of  existence after the three "sights". After his enlightenment he eventually decided to share his wisdom with humanity.
But there's no mention of any altruistic motive when he left his family that I know of.

with Metta
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: nirmal on February 28, 2011, 01:42:55 pm
Is there any proof in the suttas that the Buddha-to-be viewed leaving the household life as a sacrifice?
From what I've read he left to gain a deeper understanding of  existence after the three "sights". After his enlightenment he eventually decided to share his wisdom with humanity.
But there's no mention of any altruistic motive when he left his family that I know of.

with Metta

The Jataka tales (tales of those previous lives) show him sacrificing his life, his health, his possessions and ultimately even his wife and kids for the welfare of others. This sacrificial attitude shows why he was capable of becoming a Buddha - while most of us aren't (in this lifetime). And because he was on his way to becoming a Buddha, he is called 'the bodhisattva' in those lives as well. Suttas? - give me some time as I'm going through the Dharmapada first.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: Cheylah on June 22, 2017, 09:30:52 am
There is a lot of avoidance going on here.  Truth is: He definitely abandoned his family, newborn baby and wife, his kingdom, his father and his mother and all of his responsibilities.  They chased him, but he escaped them.  There is no getting around that.

You can do the same, if you meet his conditions and circumstances:
1.  He had a prior agreement with Yashodhara to achieve enlightenment and come back for her.  (He kept his word.)
2.  He left his family is great circumstances; nobody was going to starve or want for anything but him.
3.  His father was more than capable of continuing the "family business".
4.  He achieved his goal.  If you do this, don't fail.
5.  He spent years helping his son later in life, and bestowed an inexpressible gift for his son's sacrifice. Rahula obtained enlightenment at the age of 18.

Looking to the Buddha as a role model is correct; but we Must consider all of the conditions intelligently, without bias to obtain correct understanding of what the Truth is.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: Rahul on June 22, 2017, 11:30:14 pm
Does it really matter whether his action of abandoning his family was selfish or not?

So where do you think this discussion will lead? What conclusion do we expect here? There will be people who will always say 'yes, it was selfish of him to abandon his family for his quest'. And there will be another people who will always say 'no, he did it for a noble cause'...

What will be achieved by this discussion?

Or in the first place, do we even have any proof that the account of his life (being prince, abandoning, searching for answers, enlightenment...) is a true story or just a fable?

The story of his life is irrelevant here. What's relevant for us is the concepts - the teachings.

The focus should be on the concepts and teachings. Spending time in elaboration of the teachings would be more fruitful.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 14, 2017, 09:25:02 pm
In a very abstract and broad way, Buddhism is about leaving the cycle of suffering and attachment, and wives and children are a very well known part of that. The Buddha, after they were the Buddha, was said to be harsh with a monk who had sex with his wife who was nagging him to give her a child. This is just one of many examples that Buddhism is rather strictly about eventual renunciation of these common things in life which are said to cause heights of joy and pits of suffering.

I think that various apologetics regarding this may be unnecessary.

Most Buddhist schools of thought are rather patient regarding people coming to this conclusion and proving this point, which is actually quite simple and obvious to anyone who sees and thinks.

If all things that come into existence must leave existence, then in attaching to those things deeply, one experiences loss at their eventual departure, this is just true, this is just undeniable.

The Buddhist path was to renounce and avoid these sorts of troubles, and to work towards never becoming embroiled and trapped in the cycle of pain and pleasure, to ascend beyond all of that and never come back to it.

So if one wants to be honest:

1. In its broadest sense, Buddhism is about renouncing the world and the worldly and leaving the world and the worldly.
2. Things people are most passionate about in life are their wives and children. They cause great pleasure and pain and many would say are their "reason to live" and "reason to work" and "reason to stay in the world".

Simple as that. There can be lots of excuses about it, lots of apologies and explanations, and most genuine and sincere hearts are patient regarding the time it may take for someone to accept these things and leave them, but Buddhism remains about renouncing all the things, all of them, even those things we hold most dearly.

In any case though, the Buddha did return to his wife and child and taught them both what he had learned, which was after all supposed to be a much greater gift to them than his bodily features, his seed, or whatever else.

It can be a hard pill to swallow, but the lesson at its core is very important. Are you willing to accept total renunciation of the world!? Are you ready? Perhaps not. Me neither, and our whole lives are about if we are willing to take this road or not, if we are willing to leave this place forever or not.

Can you feel the sincerity of this? Can you imagine how we might weep and weep terribly over our loved ones, over never seeing them again, over never meeting them even the first time? Think deeply about all this, think how serious a sacrifice this is, what a challenge it is to leave these things forever in the truest sense.

Who can really do it? Who can really spare themselves? Who can not love their master even? That is why even attachment to the Buddha or ideas of the Buddha may develop, and even that can be a grasping and holding. Everything must go, but not in a destructive way, not in a bratty and childish way, but in the most heartfelt way possible.

The great irony of this, is that this path is only suitable for those who are sensitive, for those who do love. The ones who are already apathetic are not suited to this, they do not cleanse themselves thereby, they are simply demented from the get go, gaining nothing nor finding a way out if they never even know what it is they are leaving or escaping.

I think about this all the time, it is truly tremendous, and Buddhism taken lightly is no Buddhism at all.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 10:04:49 pm
Everything must go, but not in a destructive way, not in a bratty and childish way, but in the most heartfelt way possible.

The great irony of this, is that this path is only suitable for those who are sensitive, for those who do love. The ones who are already apathetic are not suited to this, they do not cleanse themselves thereby, they are simply demented from the get go, gaining nothing nor finding a way out if they never even know what it is they are leaving or escaping.

I think about this all the time, it is truly tremendous, and Buddhism taken lightly is no Buddhism at all.

Oh the tyranny, domineeringness, fundamentalism & lecturing. Please spare us.  :chill:
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 10:13:29 pm
All doctrines preach about care and love for the family especially the aged but Buddha left his family and got enlightenment.

What could we learn from this?

Did he prove the doctrines of all religions wrong?

Was it selfish of him to abandon his wife and child in order to seek enlightenment?

Dear Nirmal

I can provide my opinion to you here, which, naturally, is merely my personal opinion & speculations.

I think an important thing to consider was Gotama (the Buddha) did not live in a modern 'nuclear family', where husband & wife are highly dependent upon eachother both emotionally & financially.

Instead, Gotama lived in a very wealthy 'clan' group, where his wife & son were well cared for by an extensive family network.

Even more importantly, when the scriptures refer to Gotama leaving home, it refers to his parents who were the most aggrieved. In other words, Gotama was not mostly seen to abandon his wife & child but, instead, to abandon his clan duties as the heir to not only a throne but a military duty.

In short, Gotama left a way of life, which includes militarism, which his society expected him to perform.

After his enlightenment, he immediately returned to his former home.  Eventually, both his wife & son, according to the story, attained enlightenment, which is the highest good & happiness.

Therefore, in my opinion, it was a happy ending, not only for his family, but for many of us.

With metta

 :namaste:
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 14, 2017, 10:59:48 pm
Everything must go, but not in a destructive way, not in a bratty and childish way, but in the most heartfelt way possible.

The great irony of this, is that this path is only suitable for those who are sensitive, for those who do love. The ones who are already apathetic are not suited to this, they do not cleanse themselves thereby, they are simply demented from the get go, gaining nothing nor finding a way out if they never even know what it is they are leaving or escaping.

I think about this all the time, it is truly tremendous, and Buddhism taken lightly is no Buddhism at all.

Oh the tyranny, domineeringness, fundamentalism & lecturing. Please spare us.  :chill:

I've been waiting for you to comment upon one of my comments. I wanted to let you know that it is my sincere wish that you somehow manage to achieve the state of ultimate enlightenment and departure from this world as soon as possible, hopefully in the next few minutes, tomorrow, or any time soon, never again to return to this place or world again. Wouldn't that be wonderful? What is inhibiting you from achieving this? Are you on some mission to stick around here a little a longer? What might be stopping you from right now departing from this world forever and achieving the ideal immediately? This is not sarcasm, I am genuinely asking you, as you have access to quoting things or whatever.

Of all people, you are the first I want to see depart from this existence and achieve the highest and best attainment, why are you still here though? What holds you to this place? It torments me that even one as excellent as you in your knowledge and perfect execution and understanding of Buddhism, has not simply left this world by now, yet you are still here ridiculing old men and posting laughing emoticons at people and whatever else you do.

I too might enjoy attaining the ideal, but I almost want to see you do it first, for you to become a non-returner first of all, to go and never come back to this world, but before you do achieve this, hopefully tomorrow or as immediately as possible, I would greatly appreciate if you teach me and everyone how to do to it, and then prove it by doing it immediately thereafter.

Simply explain how you will become a non-returning and immediately leave this world, then immediately leave this world and become a non-returner. Won't that be truly both excellent since you will have told us how to do it, and then furthermore shown us your doing it, and doing it truly, so that you never come back at all?
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 11:12:53 pm
In a very abstract and broad way, Buddhism is about leaving the cycle of suffering and attachment, and wives and children are a very well known part of that.

After the Buddha attained enlightenment & taught, many laypeople attained enlightenment and remained living at home.

The Buddha was a special case because the world needed the Buddha to discover the way to live that was free from suffering.

Quote
The Buddha, after they were the Buddha, was said to be harsh with a monk who had sex with his wife who was nagging him to give her a child.

Of course, because he was a monk. However, the monk could have chosen to leave the monkhood. If he really wanted to leave the monkhood, the Buddha would have allowed him to.

Quote
This is just one of many examples that Buddhism is rather strictly about eventual renunciation of these common things in life which are said to cause heights of joy and pits of suffering.

Its not an example. It is only an example in the specific context.

Quote
I think that various apologetics regarding this may be unnecessary.

I think it is a very important subject for discussion because people with family values want to have faith in Buddhism.

Please keep in mind it is families who support the monastic community with requisites.

The Buddha taught for both monastics & laypeople therefore we should not be fundamentalist & extreme about what Buddhism is.

Quote
If all things that come into existence must leave existence, then in attaching to those things deeply, one experiences loss at their eventual departure, this is just true, this is just undeniable.

This idea sounds like moral nihilism. It does not sound Buddhist at all. Buddhism, for example, encourages fidelity in the family. Just because there is impermanence it does not mean we enter into & end relationships whenever we want.

Quote
The Buddhist path was to renounce and avoid these sorts of troubles, and to work towards never becoming embroiled and trapped in the cycle of pain and pleasure, to ascend beyond all of that and never come back to it.

The cycle of pain & pleasure exists in the mind and in the mind only. To be a monk or nun is NOT required to end the cycle of plain & pleasure.

Quote
1. In its broadest sense, Buddhism is about renouncing the world and the worldly and leaving the world and the worldly.

This cannot be true because Buddhism teaches for both monks & laypeople.

Quote
2. Things people are most passionate about in life are their wives and children. They cause great pleasure and pain and many would say are their "reason to live" and "reason to work" and "reason to stay in the world".

In his 1st sermon, the Buddha taught his higher noble path was for those who left the household life. In other words, the Buddha encouraged those into monasticism for whom it was suitable.

Quote
Simple as that. There can be lots of excuses about it, lots of apologies and explanations, and most genuine and sincere hearts are patient regarding the time it may take for someone to accept these things and leave them, but Buddhism remains about renouncing all the things, all of them, even those things we hold most dearly.

There is no support for this extreme fundamentalist tyrannical dogma in any sutta.

Quote
In any case though, the Buddha did return to his wife and child and taught them both what he had learned, which was after all supposed to be a much greater gift to them than his bodily features, his seed, or whatever else.

This is plainly obvious however, unlike your opinions, the Buddha did not recruit all of his family into his monastic movement. For example, his foster mother asked to be included, which the Buddha reluctantly agreed to.

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It can be a hard pill to swallow, but the lesson at its core is very important. Are you willing to accept total renunciation of the world!? Are you ready?

Renouncing the world includes renouncing the expectation that the world follow you.  :listen:

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Perhaps not. Me neither, and our whole lives are about if we are willing to take this road or not, if we are willing to leave this place forever or not.

This idea is not Buddhist. Buddhism does not challenge laypeople to give up everything. If you were ever an evanglical Christian, please abandon the tendency towards extremism & fundamentalism.

Individuals find the renunciate path on their own. External encouragement is unnecessary.

Quote
Can you feel the sincerity of this? Can you imagine how we might weep and weep terribly over our loved ones, over never seeing them again, over never meeting them even the first time? Think deeply about all this, think how serious a sacrifice this is, what a challenge it is to leave these things forever in the truest sense.

This is illogical. If you are going to weep over loved ones, you are not ready for the Buddha's monastic path. There is no sacrifice involved.

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Who can really do it? Who can really spare themselves?

This type of challenging is unBuddhist. Respectfully, it sounds like your mind has been brainwashed by a cult.

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The great irony of this, is that this path is only suitable for those who are sensitive, for those who do love.

This fundamentalist statement is obviously not true because there are many types of love, as the Buddha taught, such in the Piyavagga. The monastic path is not for those who have the lower kinds of filial or sensual love. The most important quality for the monastic path is disenchantment towards the world.

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The ones who are already apathetic are not suited to this, they do not cleanse themselves thereby, they are simply demented from the get go, gaining nothing nor finding a way out if they never even know what it is they are leaving or escaping.

Harsh, judgment & condemnation here.

Quote
I think about this all the time, it is truly tremendous, and Buddhism taken lightly is no Buddhism at all.

This is only your personal opinion, which you think about. Because of all of the **THINKING** how can progress be made?

The Buddha taught about a fourfold community, of monks, nuns, laymen & laywomen. Without Buddhist laypeople, the monks & nuns cannot be supported. That there are both monastics & laypeople merely follows natural law of nature rather than any personal wishes or actions.

 :curtain:
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 11:15:39 pm

I've been waiting for you to comment upon one of my comments. I wanted to let you know that it is my sincere wish that you somehow manage to achieve the state of ultimate enlightenment and departure from this world as soon as possible, hopefully in the next few minutes, tomorrow, or any time soon, never again to return to this place or world again. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Thanks but this sounds crazy! The 'world' ('loka') in within the mind, as the Buddha taught.

Quote
Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the world, the origination of the world, the cessation of the world and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the world. AN 4.45

 :chill:

Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 11:18:25 pm
I've  you  my I you  my you you  you  I am  you you  I  you you you I

 :lmfao:
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 14, 2017, 11:25:10 pm
It torments me...

Yes, the "torment".

...excellent as you in your knowledge and perfect execution and understanding of Buddhism...

Indeed.  :namaste:

has not simply left this world by now, yet you are still here ridiculing old men and posting laughing emoticons at people and whatever else you do.
I posted the truth for an old man. Possibly he could use it.

Laughing emoticons? Only to my friend Ground, my student Samana Johann and to Artis.

Left the world? Maybe I am wheelchair bound or similar. How would you feel if I was wheelchair bound and merely an intellectual who happened to read the suttas clearly?

 :bigtears:

Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 15, 2017, 12:19:01 am
Maybe you and I are here to enlighten each other, but when I said I want you to leave this world, I mean that I want you to be extinguished, to cease to be part of this cycle of suffering, you know, attain, get out, go poof, never come back. This is not meant in the bad way like "go away and keep on living your life", but in the best way "Nibbana/Nirvana" to become that, to never come back, to be the first among us to do it, but before you go to tell us how in your efficient way as quickly as possible, step by step, and then do it right there, so that your being gone will be proof that you really did it.
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 15, 2017, 12:32:50 am
It torments me...

Yes, the "torment".

...excellent as you in your knowledge and perfect execution and understanding of Buddhism...

Indeed.  :namaste:

has not simply left this world by now, yet you are still here ridiculing old men and posting laughing emoticons at people and whatever else you do.
I posted the truth for an old man. Possibly he could use it.

Laughing emoticons? Only to my friend Ground, my student Samana Johann and to Artis.

Left the world? Maybe I am wheelchair bound or similar. How would you feel if I was wheelchair bound and merely an intellectual who happened to read the suttas clearly?

 :bigtears:

Your recent posts, particularly towards what I have written, fill me with ABSOLUTE JOY. Fanatic Joy. We make a good team. I say the wrong thing, you say the right thing. I think we should continue this trend. I will not deny your excellent statements and work, beautiful, BEAUTIFUL. Thank you so much. Sometimes it takes people to say very specific wrong things, to get very specific right things generated in the manner you do, that being said, I still wish for you to be gone from this world.

So in answering your question, what would I think if you were a wheel bound intellectual who simply understands the suttas clearly (and by extension is thus not a superstitious Buddhist type with their ooga booga extremist jibberish), all the more would I hope that you could no longer suffer as a wheel chair bound intellectual who feels compelled to wheel around spreading these things to argumentative people and foolish old men or whatever, that you, in your wheel chair, sit and constantly witness ignorant jabbering by maniacs like myself or others on this website, and instead immediately attain the state of total transcendence from all this, freedom from your wheelchair, your surgeries, your pain, your suffering, your annoyance, your frustration, your ups and downs in pleasure and pain, and gone forever, never to come back to this bad place, this hellish cycle. So my wish for you would remain the same. This is not me being a smart donkey on purpose. I am telling you this seems to me to be a good solution and I wish you were able to do it, or it was possible for you to do so immediately.

Wouldn't it be wonderful? You would no longer be around such annoying people or things or the lies they tell and spread, their superstitious rubbish, their fanaticism, all those troubles. You would not be bound to suffering, you would not be looked at as bad or good or looked at in any way, you wouldn't exist and you wouldn't care about what people thought, or said, or did, you would be in a perfect state, ideal and not tempted to reply, to return. Meanwhile, fools would be fools for as long as they are foolish, but why should you imitate us?
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 15, 2017, 12:35:50 am
Maybe you and I are here to enlighten each other

Definitely not. You have made one single post on this forum which is on-topic. This single post was made on this topic about Buddha leaving home. I provided a comprehensive refutation to nearly every sentence you wrote, which were wrong.

If you are the Artis that was one of the Gestappo on E-Sangha, then you cannot even help yourself.

but when I said I want you to leave this world, I mean that I want you to be extinguished, to cease to be part of this cycle of suffering, you know, attain, get out, go poof, never come back. This is not meant in the bad way like "go away and keep on living your life", but in the best way "Nibbana/Nirvana" to become that, to never come back, to be the first among us to do it, but before you go to tell us how in your efficient way as quickly as possible, step by step, and then do it right there, so that your being gone will be proof that you really did it.
This is superstition. It is crazy.

Now please stop harassing the members here. I will depart for a few days.

 :namaste:
Title: Re: Buddha abandoned his wife and child.
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 15, 2017, 12:52:24 am
What I wrote in this thread was on topic, your refutation of what I wrote was on topic (and very good too), and why would you come back to this website after departing? Why not remain away forever? Shall we make a thread specifically dedicated to you and I for us to discuss things since you refuse to renounce and abandon this website, let alone the world? I think such a thread may become an on-topic way for you to spread what all you know before you leave us forever. Why also can you not simply leave us forever and go on to the state of total release from all this? I will make that thread now.
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