Author Topic: Cessation of kamma  (Read 196 times)

Offline ground

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Cessation of kamma
« on: August 01, 2017, 01:52:30 am »
Many private beliefs have been uttered about kamma, let's see what should be known about kamma according to buddhism:

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"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma.

"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html#part-5


Now as to contact:

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"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
...
"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html


And how does contact cease? Contact ceases either through cessation of perception or through direct perception of the emptiness of true existence of the potentially contacted. Why? Because in both cases nothing makes itself felt as if being accessible by means of contact. Since there is no intention towards anything anymore this is called cessation of kamma.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Cessation of kamma
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2017, 02:48:29 am »
Many private beliefs...

Indeed, like a Mahayana "private" belief.  :teehee:

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And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.


SN 12.25 might help here, although it is a complicated sutta, particularly for one that cannot comprehend clearly more simple suttas.  :teehee:

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And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma.


These are mental states rather than physical Mahayana locations such as in the clouds, beneath the earth, in the jungles & on other planets. 

:teehee:

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"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

This does not refer to Mahayana & Tibetan "reincarnation". For example, you snort cocaine & get high. This is the 1st result which arises in the here & now. The next day you have a painful aches & other symptoms. This is the 2nd result that arises later. Then later again you develop a craving or addiction for cocaine. This is the 3rd result. All results are in this lifetime. The term "in this lifetime" bracketed in the quote does not appear in the Pali. This is the private belief of the translator. 

:teehee:

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And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

Yes. The N8FP leads to the cessation of self-view, which is how it causes kamma to cease. To practise the N8FP there must be contact. It cannot be practised unconsciously. MN 43 states consciousness & wisdom are co-joined.

 :listen:

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"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

This quote merely states when ignorance ends, contact-affected-by-ignorance (avijjā­samphas­sa­jena) ends. The essential word is 'avijjā­samphas­sa­jena'. Please refer to SN 22.81; MN 38 & SN 22.53, which clearly state this. Please give up private beliefs &, instead, conform with the perfection of the Lord Buddha's Dhamma & the Noble Disciples.  :om:

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"And what is contact? These six are classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, intellect-contact. This is called contact.

Like a beginner, groping in the dark, lost in suttas.  :teehee:

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And how does contact cease? Contact ceases either through cessation of perception or through direct perception of the emptiness of true existence of the potentially contacted. Why? Because in both cases nothing makes itself felt as if being accessible by means of contact. Since there is no intention towards anything anymore this is called cessation of kamma.

The Pali word translated as "ceases" is "nirodha". In this context, it means to "extinguish", "quench" or "liberate" rather than "cease". When the flames of greed, hatred & ignorance "extinguish", contact "quenches" ("cools down") because contact is no longer aflame with greed hatred & delusion. Refer to Adittapariyaya Sutta: The Fire Sermon; Upaya Sutta; etc.

As the sutta quoted literally states but, in your private Chinese Taoist Chaan belief, your mind has overlooked, contact "ceases" due to the ceasing of ignorance. To quote:
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Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of... contact.  :hi:

Why can't you read what is plainly written? SN 46.55 states because of the five hindrances or lack of right concentration. :lmfao:

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SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta — Sangarava {S v 121; CDB ii 1611} [Walshe]. Why do some sacred texts seem clear, while others are muddled?

[At Saavatthii the Brahman Sangaarava asked the Buddha:] "Why is it, good Gotama, how does it come about that sometimes sacred words I have long studied are not clear to me, not to mention those I have not studied? And how is it too that sometimes other sacred words that I have not so studied are clear to me, not to mention those I have studied?"

"Well, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires, and does not know, as it really is, the way of escape from sense-desires that have arisen, then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, nor can he know and see what is to the profit of others, or of both himself and others. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

"Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed with ill-will... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water, heated on a fire, boiling up and bubbling over. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sloth-and-torpor... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water covered over with slimy moss and water-plants. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by worry-and-flurry... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water ruffled by the wind, so that the water trembled, eddied and rippled. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... he cannot know or see...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.055.wlsh.html  :lmfao: :teehee: :smack:
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 03:10:49 am by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Cessation of kamma
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2017, 03:21:16 am »
And how does contact cease? Contact ceases either through cessation of perception...

Contact cannot exist without perception. Therefore, enlightenment cannot occur without contact & perception. MN 43.  :om:

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or through direct perception of the emptiness of true existence of the potentially contacted.
This sounds like a reasonable guess or speculation you made.  :teehee:

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Why? Because in both cases nothing makes itself felt as if being accessible by means of contact.

This is not related to "feeling" since feelings are also emptiness. Also, many suttas state arahants & Buddha still feel & perceive. What you wrote above is papanca or psycho-babble or, otherwise, mere superstition. It is not real. It does not exist (except in sleep or the unconscious 9th jhana).

 :nerd:

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Since there is no intention towards anything anymore this is called cessation of kamma.

No. Buddhas continue to have intentions but their intentions are only enlightened, wise, pure or selfless intentions. The Buddha taught intention is one of the nutriments of life (SN 12.63). Life cannot exist without intention.

You think a Buddha talks, walks or finds a toilet without intention?  :lmfao:

All kamma is intention but not all intention is kamma. The view of kamma is attachment (upadhi). Refer to MN 117.  :om:

Offline ground

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Re: Cessation of kamma
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2017, 03:32:17 am »
You think a Buddha talks, walks or finds a toilet without intention?  :lmfao:
I don not prefer to talk about what a buddha does or does not since there exist so many fantasies in the context of the word 'buddha' in the world.

So I prefer to say that someone who's kamma has ceased finds a toilet without contact (phassa) in the context of the object 'toilet'.

All kamma is intention but not all intention is kamma.  :om:
That is correct since intention in the context of kamma is specified by contact.

you seem to have missed the context of this statememt of mine
... Since there is no intention towards anything anymore this is called cessation of kamma.
and the context of this statement of mine is the whole posting where the sutta is quoted:
Quote
From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma;
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 03:38:16 am by ground »

Offline ground

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Re: Cessation of kamma
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2017, 03:47:12 am »
And how does contact cease? Contact ceases either through cessation of perception...

Contact cannot exist without perception.
yes. this is what you are quoting.

Therefore, enlightenment cannot occur without contact & perception. MN 43.  :om:
Of course. I did not say otherwise. For kamma to cease there must be kamma in the first place. So there must be perception and contact. Knowing can arise only on the basis of not knowing.

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or through direct perception of the emptiness of true existence of the potentially contacted.
This sounds like a reasonable guess or speculation you made.  :teehee:
No this is my valid knowledge based on my direct perception of emptiness.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 03:49:46 am by ground »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Cessation of kamma
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2017, 04:17:52 am »
So I prefer to say that someone who's kamma has ceased finds a toilet without contact (phassa) in the context of the object 'toilet'.

This is crazy. Have fun in this superstitious fantasy land. Superstition is not only belief in God, reincarnation, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. Esoteric philosophy can also be superstition, such as the perception that perception does not exist.

 :nopity: :reading:

Offline ground

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Re: Cessation of kamma
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 04:37:20 am »
... Esoteric philosophy can also be superstition, such as the perception that perception does not exist. 


To assert that perception does not exist would be irrational. To assert that the non-existence of perception could be perceived would be irational too.
The pali-kanon mentions two modes of consciouness that deviate from ordinary perception:
1. neither perception-nor-non-perception
2. objectless or themeless absorption

as to 1: the name is irrational since either there is perception or there is no perception

as to 2: since 1 is irrationally named 2 cannot be rationally and validly distinguished from 1

What however definitely is the case is that any perception may only arise from original non-perception and since perceptions are impermanent, arise and cease, and arise and cease non-perception, even if only infinitesimal  short in time, also exists. And there is the possiblity to evoke a breakdown of perception so that the lucid empty state of non-perception shimmers through. And the latter may be called in diverse ways ... e.g. 'nature of mind' or 'ground of being' or 'lucid emptiness' or 'awareness and emptiness as one'. This state is knowing itself but this knowing isn't to be confused with perception since it is nondual but perception always has an object.
Of course this state of lucid non-perception cannot be sustained. Why? Because of the dynamic energy of 'the ground of being' or 'the nature of mind' which manifests itself ceaselessly in and as all phenomena of samsara and nirvana which are the known being one with the knowing and therefore empty of true existence.

This was just to explain the expression 'non-perception' in the context of dzogchen where it is an aspect of that to which one is directly introduced and where this direct introduction erases ordinary perception and therefore contact and thus entails cessation of kamma.

Another approach besides direct introduction to dzogchen is the prasangika madhyamaka approach to emptiness of true existence of all phenomena, self and other. which also erases ordinary perception and therefore contact and thus entails cessation of kamma.



But don't get me wrong here! I do not make exclusive statements as to the approaches to the cessation of kamma.
Why?
Because it is said in the pali-kanon:
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"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path:
right view,
right resolve,
right speech,
right action,
right livelihood,
right effort,
right mindfulness,
right concentration.
This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 05:05:23 am by ground »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Cessation of kamma
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 06:48:07 pm »
Please keep the discussion going but also include more simple explanations please.

 


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