Author Topic: dependent arising  (Read 5048 times)

Offline stillpointdancer

  • Enlightenment through insight
  • Member
  • Posts: 532
  • Dancing at the Still Point describes my meditation
    • View Profile
    • Enlightenment for Grown Ups
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2018, 03:17:26 am »
Yes, we always discussed dependent origination in terms of looking for opportunities to find a point in the linear model to work on. We even called it a bardo at one time, a space, albeit small, to work on your reaction to feelings arising as a result of stuff happening.

In terms of past and future we also visualised dependent origination as part of a cycle, where past reactions and behavior reinforce present reactions. By working on present reactions we can bring changes to the cycle, and influence those in the future, thus breaking the cycle (at least in theory).

And of course, zafrogzen, the stillness is the still point that provides the opportunity for change. It's something that's intrigued me for a number of years, hence the tag 'stillpointdancer'' There is a different quality to the experience on the rare occasions when the still point happens, and it does indeed feel as if the 'simultaneity' kicks in.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline Pixie

  • Member
  • Posts: 231
    • View Profile
    • Buddhism Without Boundaries
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2018, 08:36:27 am »
Quote from: Zafrogzen
I like Ajahn Amaro. I sat with him and listened to him talk when he was living near here. I felt totally at one with him in person.

Yes, he's very nice. I've been to quite a few of his talks over the past few years . I also asked for and received some practice advice from him during one of the tea breaks in between a talk and the question and answer session afterwards.
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2018, 09:32:57 am »
Some things are so obvious that we tend to overlook them. It should be obvious that we are dependent on everything else for our very existence. Instead there's this focus on our individual past and future, as if they had some actual existence somewhere other than in our thoughts. It should also be obvious that we are born and die right here and that the world continues to exist after we die -- just as it existed before our seemingly separate individuality arose. We arise and disappear in this world totally dependent upon it. That this present world, the very source of our existence, continues on while our separate self dies and disappears should be a source of great comfort, but most religions (including Buddhism) are preoccupied with escaping it, one way or another, instead of nurturing and caring for it.

In zen it's said that we have to die before we die. That's where we find our true connection to the rest of the world, the source of our apparent individuality, the world from which we arise moment to moment and into which we die. So when we do zazen (meditation) we practice dying and letting go of individual concerns. It's simple. But also very difficult for most of us.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 12:07:19 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline BlackLooter

  • Serious Cue!
  • Member
  • Posts: 69
  • I'm a Buddha in joy and love..
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2018, 11:32:34 pm »
We are here as a material...and the medium between materials is some cosmic force..or communication..Like the laws of physics for example.. You can see into the physics with your mind to matter connection..

Material connections are true..

In independent arising people think that they can make choices without it affecting other people..and other things..other than the self/mind complex.. that they inhabit..Over the course of things..we will find .. through technical appeal.. a new way to involve ourselves...within other peoples lives...For example virtual reality..and virtual projections.. We are already inhabiting a world where Skype is very popular.. And so how is one supposed to be independent from other things...all your actions are signals that fill eternity as a memory...which lasts for ever...not only just an echo..but a permanent etch in time..and the now and future cosm...which is a net.. which is made of intra-relatable matter..

The Now is a projection from your being...Self mind.. When those projections touch people..they are officially in your life..It works as a thought to thought basis..

If these are all examples of Dependent Origination..

Then my question..is are there any valid examples in logic or reason that confirm the independent origination theory?
Freedom reigns over everything!

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2018, 05:26:04 pm »

Then my question..is are there any valid examples in logic or reason that confirm the independent origination theory?

I wrote -- "It should be obvious that we are dependent on everything else for our very existence." That's not obvious to you?

I said "everything," but to give just one example for you, how would you have posted this without everything that went into making your computer and the internet possible? It would take pages to enumerate just that one dependency.

In the zen meal chant we remember how the food comes to us and the enumerable beings that made it possible. Hello.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 05:28:27 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline BlackLooter

  • Serious Cue!
  • Member
  • Posts: 69
  • I'm a Buddha in joy and love..
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2018, 01:20:15 am »
This is a quote that I found today:

Quote
We are members of a vast orchestra in which each living instrument is essential to the complementary and harmonious playing of the whole
from Kinship with All Life, by J Allen Boone
Freedom reigns over everything!

Offline stillpointdancer

  • Enlightenment through insight
  • Member
  • Posts: 532
  • Dancing at the Still Point describes my meditation
    • View Profile
    • Enlightenment for Grown Ups
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 02:21:17 am »
It's interesting that the world of physics is in two minds about causality. Quantum mechanics has it that events occur in a fixed causal order, with different observers always agreeing on those events. General relativity, however, has every observer their own notion of present and future, allowing different people to disagree about the causal ordering of certain events (New Scientist 16th June 2018).

I remember being somewhat dazed and confused on first finding out that in a vacuum matter can spontaneously appear and disappear, in contrast to my science lessons where I was taught that matter can be neither created nor destroyed. As it happened, it helped me cut through some of the problems I had been experiencing in meditation and led to one of those mini-insight experiences that happen every now and then.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline philboyd

  • Member
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2018, 05:57:55 am »
My understanding of the Buddha's teachings of Dependent Origination is within a contextual relation to the Four Noble Truths. With it's foundation in ignorance of these Truths, Dependent Origination progresses on through it's enumerated links all toward the development of conceit. D.O. describes the construction or framing process of ego building. When coupled with a study of The Five Clinging Aggregates it seems clear to me that the teachings are meant to lead to an understanding of dukkha.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 06:04:50 am by philboyd »
Peace

Offline BlackLooter

  • Serious Cue!
  • Member
  • Posts: 69
  • I'm a Buddha in joy and love..
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 06:27:24 pm »
But the question is why does Duckka arise at all?
Freedom reigns over everything!

Offline philboyd

  • Member
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2018, 08:29:13 pm »
But the question is why does Duckka arise at all?
[/quote

These teachings will help understanding
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Paticca-samuppada-vighanga Sutta
They can be found at accesstoinsight.org
Peace

Offline BlackLooter

  • Serious Cue!
  • Member
  • Posts: 69
  • I'm a Buddha in joy and love..
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2018, 09:31:01 pm »
Scriptures are one thing..I've read a few Buddhist scriptures..

But hearing what people around the globe think about is important..
Freedom reigns over everything!

Offline VincentRJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2018, 04:30:31 am »
Some things are so obvious that we tend to overlook them. It should be obvious that we are dependent on everything else for our very existence. Instead there's this focus on our individual past and future, as if they had some actual existence somewhere other than in our thoughts. It should also be obvious that we are born and die right here and that the world continues to exist after we die -- just as it existed before our seemingly separate individuality arose. We arise and disappear in this world totally dependent upon it. That this present world, the very source of our existence, continues on while our separate self dies and disappears should be a source of great comfort, but most religions (including Buddhism) are preoccupied with escaping it, one way or another, instead of nurturing and caring for it.

This is a major philosphical problem, the part I've highlighted in bold. My most optimistic interpretation is that Buddhism is preoccupied with escaping from the usual, illusory concepts of the world, which are the source of all our problems.

The true, or ideal processes of the scientific methodology, attempt to dispel these illusory concepts, through repeated experimentation and genuine attempts to falsify any particular theory.
If all attempts to falsify a theory (or hypothesis) have failed, and all repeated experiments, under controlled conditions, produce the same results, then we accept the theory as 'truth', at least provisionally.
Usually, a few years, decades or centuries later, our theories are shown to be false or inaccurate, almost without exception.

When I first came across the hypothesis of the existence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, I was amazed.
For several decades, it was assumed that the expansion of the universe was slowing down, and at some point the expansion would stop and the universe would begin to contract. The late Stephen Hawking used to believe this.

However, as a result of improved telescope technology, such as the Hubble telescope in outer space, it became apparent, from the observation of very distant galaxies, that the expansion of the universe is actually still accelerating, 14 billion years after the Big Bang.

It would seem that our most fundamental theories of Physics are wrong, at least wrong on the very large scale of the universe.

On the other hand, maybe our current theories are not wrong. Maybe the reason for the accelerating expansion of the universe, is due to an invisible and undetectable type of matter and energy which has a gravitational effect but doesn't chemically interact with the matter and energy which we know.

The significance of this issue is that the total quantity of this invisible and undetectable matter and energy, which we've named Dark Matter and Dark Energy, has to represent 95% of all matter and energy in the universe, in order to maintain the truth of our current theories of Physics and Astrophysics.

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2018, 07:44:20 pm »
Dependent arising of the sort I elucidated earlier, dependent on everything else in this present moment, only appears when the self is dissolved in the immediate environment, with subject and object no longer differentiated. This cannot be grasped intellectually, but can only be experienced directly.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 07:47:40 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline VincentRJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2018, 02:38:30 am »
Dependent arising of the sort I elucidated earlier, dependent on everything else in this present moment, only appears when the self is dissolved in the immediate environment, with subject and object no longer differentiated. This cannot be grasped intellectually, but can only be experienced directly.

Zafrogzen,
You seem to be making a dualistic distinction between intellectualism and experience, as though the two are not connected and not dependent on each other.

I would suggest, as a reasonable deduction, that experience devoid of intellectualism, is the experience of non-human animals.

Intellectualism is a unique characteristic of the Homo Sapiens animal.

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: dependent arising
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2018, 07:29:42 am »
By intellectualism I meant conceptual, discursive thinking, which tends to be inherently dualistic. Of course such thinking is dependent upon direct experience and is a kind of direct experience itself. However, experience devoid of intellectualism is not some lower form of experience. In fact intellectual discriminations like lower and higher don't really apply to it.

Do you practice meditation and nonthinking (samadhi)?

Scientists think everything was created in the inconceivably remote "past" by the big bang. Christians think creation was accomplished in a few days a couple of thousand years ago. To me it looks more and more like it's happening right now, arising moment to moment.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 08:59:46 am by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal