Dependent Origination

[Spiny le Norman]

Emptiness is not telling us things don't exist.

"This being, that becomes; from the arising of this, that arises;
This not being, that does not become; from the ceasing of this, that ceases."

( the general formula for dependent arising )

[catmoon]

 And now (I) am proud to report that my mind is empty of my self.  

Would it be too unkind to point out that this statement disproves itself?

[catmoon]

Emptiness is not telling us things don't exist.

"This being, that becomes; from the arising of this, that arises;
This not being, that does not become; from the ceasing of this, that ceases."

( the general formula for dependent arising )

Just so. 

[Caz]

Once, a couple of years ago, I heard it said "We don't teach emptiness to beginners because the first thing they do with it is fall into nihilism."

  I thought gee that's kinda harsh, then proceeded forth forewarned, forearmed, clear minded and ready. And of course I fell straight in to nihilism. Since then, I've watched any number of people take the same fall. The more educated minds just do it in a more complicated way.

  So I think it is worth reiterating that

Emptiness is not telling us things don't exist.

Correct ! 

[Bodhisatta2012]

It's your kamma.  Have at it.

 And now (I) am proud to report that my mind is empty of my self.  

Would it be too unkind to point out that this statement disproves itself?

[catmoon]

Has this thread been split? Some posts have disappeared.

[Spiny le Norman]

It might be worth mentioning that the 4 Noble Truths are themselves an example of dependent origination. 

Spiny

[FaDao]

All phenomena and experiences are inter-related.

The bus arrives at the bus-stop because the driver went to work after he slept on the couch last night because of an argument with his wife due to the fact that wife's mother said ten years ago "why are you marrying a bus driver?  you can do better."

But the driver married his wife, they had an argument 10 years later, he slept on the couch, went to work, drove the bus and today it arrived at the usual stop relatively "on time."

Meanwhile, a butterfly farted somewhere along the Amazon River ....

Namo Amitofo
- Fa Dao -

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

 Here is my understanding of dependent origination as presented in the Nikaya's.

1. The 'popular' understanding: A description of rebirth over three lives.

2. The real meaning: A description of 'what has come to be', meaning what has been mentally constructed over many years, and how this can cease to be. The formula describes the 'self' which has been constructed.

 All the 'things' included are 'sankhara's' (mental volitional constructive activities) and each of these is associated with some form of mis-understanding. So the entire formula just shows these mis-understandings and the mental actions that result from them.

 The formula shows how what has come to exist, can cease to exist. All twelve things must completely, permanently cease to exist, for full enlightenment.

 Later schools of Buddhism seem to understand the formula in some other way. This puzzles me.

 Best wishes, Vincent.

[ABC]

I have given a sutta extract supporting the literal description of jati / birth,

You have posted words rather than meaning. The meaning one accumulates & takes possession of the aggregates & sense objects.

do you have a sutta extract which supports your view of jati as meaning social class?  

From MN 98:


Birth is self-identification, self-concept. For example, if I identify myself as a "wife and mother", my self concept includes all of those aggregates (khanda) and sense bases including sense objects (ayatana) that I take to be me and belonging to me, such as my husband, my children, my house, my car, my jewellery, my job, my hobbies, etc.

When the objects of self-idenification change, my self changes. It follows my mind experiences aging & death, sorrow, lamentation pain grief despair & suffering.

"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html

"Monks, I will explain to you grasping and worrying, and also not grasping and not worrying... Here, monks, the uninstructed worldling, with no regard for Noble Ones, [1] unskilled and untrained in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones,... of those who are worthy [2]... regards body as the self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs to this man's body, and it becomes different. Because of this change and alteration in his body, his consciousness is preoccupied with bodily change. Due to this preoccupation with bodily change, worried thoughts arise and persist, laying a firm hold on his mind. Through this mental obsession he becomes fearful and distressed, and being full of desire [3] and attachment he is worried. He regards feeling as the self,... change occurs to his feeling... he is worried. [Similarly with 'perception,' 'the mental formations' and 'consciousness']. In this way, monks, grasping and worrying arise. And how, monks, do not grasping and not worrying arise?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.007.wlsh.html

And what relevance this has to the discussion?

my point has enormous relevance to the discussion.

 

[santamonicacj]

This kind of thread drives me crazy.
                  

[catmoon]

This kind of thread drives me crazy.


                  

Do tell. Why is that? Are you having as much trouble as I am making sense of it?

[santamonicacj]

This kind of thread drives me crazy.


                  

Do tell. Why is that? Are you having as much trouble as I am making sense of it?

Yes.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Birth is self-identification, self-concept. For example, if I identify myself as a "wife and mother", my self concept includes all of those aggregates (khanda) and sense bases including sense objects (ayatana) that I take to be me and belonging to me, such as my husband, my children, my house, my car, my jewellery, my job, my hobbies, etc.

When the objects of self-idenification change, my self changes. It follows my mind experiences aging & death, sorrow, lamentation pain grief despair & suffering.

Metta,
Retro.

[Yeshe]

When the objects of self-idenification change, my self changes. It follows my mind experiences aging & death, sorrow, lamentation pain grief despair & suffering.

Why does it follow that change results in all those negative experiences?

If you are talking of bodily death and rebirth it makes sense.

I think you have a non sequitur there.

We age, that is obvious, but each change does not necessarily entail the rest of the suffering you state.