Author Topic: Dependent Origination  (Read 29137 times)

Offline francis

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #255 on: December 28, 2011, 12:59:32 am »
Thanks Ron,

I agree, if the genes were just placed into a pile, there would be nothing more than a collection of parts.  That’s it, just like when you pull a chariot apart, you get wheels, axles, basket, yoke etc, nothing leftover.  Same as if you pull the aggregates apart.  There is only the parts, nothing more. 

Happy holidays to you and yours

With metta :)
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #256 on: December 28, 2011, 02:39:49 am »
And what are the parts of? *smile*

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #257 on: December 28, 2011, 05:36:21 am »
And what are the parts of? *smile*

It depends (is dependent upon) what the designer has in mind.  Or, we could say that the whole is dependent upon the designer's intention.  For example if the parts were just a pile of various pieces of lumber, a carpenter could build many things from them.  And once assembled, the user could have many possible uses for what was assembled.  For example a chair could be used by the owner as seat at the table with friends, or he./she could use it as a elevated working platform to unscrew a lightbulb.  In this way the whole is greater than the sum of the parts of the chair.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #258 on: December 28, 2011, 07:25:09 am »
Several mind moments in quick succession produces an understanding. 

Although the theory of mind moments isn't universally accepted even within Theravada.


Spiny

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #259 on: December 28, 2011, 07:50:27 am »
And what are the parts of? *smile*

It depends (is dependent upon) what the designer has in mind. 

Very true.  In Systems theory, a system is defined as a collection of components connected for a purpose.  So while you can say that a chariot is just a collection of parts, the way those parts are connected is significant because that is what makes a chariot a chariot - a system with a purpose.

Spiny

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #260 on: December 28, 2011, 08:10:42 am »
Very true.  In Systems theory, a system is defined as a collection of components connected for a purpose.  So while you can say that a chariot is just a collection of parts, the way those parts are connected is significant because that is what makes a chariot a chariot - a system with a purpose.

Spiny

Yes.  And the assembly, parts arranged that way, and perhaps used in a certain way can either satisfy or frustrate.  For example, going back to the pile of lumber, the chair design suited for a child, which satisfied the original user, who happened to be a child,  when used by someone who is very large and fat may in fact disappoint as it collapses under the weight and returns to a broken heap of lumber as it is crushed.

So, created within the designer's mind and concept put to drawings, the pile of lumber is cut, shaped and formed with the builder's skills, tools and equipment,as used by the highly pleased, joyful playing child, is crushed and returned to a broken pile of lumber by a fat man looking for a place to sit down to rest.

Moral:  "All things arise, dwell for but a time, and then deteriorate!".....aided by use and abuse.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline francis

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #261 on: December 28, 2011, 01:51:29 pm »
And what are the parts of? *smile*

It depends (is dependent upon) what the designer has in mind.  Or, we could say that the whole is dependent upon the designer's intention.  For example if the parts were just a pile of various pieces of lumber, a carpenter could build many things from them.  And once assembled, the user could have many possible uses for what was assembled.  For example a chair could be used by the owner as seat at the table with friends, or he./she could use it as a elevated working platform to unscrew a lightbulb.  In this way the whole is greater than the sum of the parts of the chair.

So who do you think desigend human beings?
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Don Athukorala

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #262 on: December 28, 2011, 02:14:06 pm »
Please refer back to the analogy of the musical instrument. A musical note is synonymous with one mind moment. If one were to listen to musical notes like; God save our ..., that is sufficient for everyone to recognise and to understand what is being played. The entire audience will stand and sing the British National Anthem. These originate from past memories (in DO Sankharas originate from past memories).

Similarly when one listens to or reads a sentence. If you do not understand the sentence, there is no understanding, no thought, no speech and no action. A Chinese person may warn you and shout at you in Mandarin that the sky is falling and run for safety, but if you do not understand Mandarin, you will not know why he is shouting at you. (Thoughts originate from understanding)

So to ‘understand’ is the key here. Several mind moments will result in an understanding. With understanding as a starting point, we have thought, speech and action.
This is DO; several mind moments in quick succession produces an understanding, followed by speech and action. If we start with right understanding, we have right thought, right speech, and right action. Wrong understanding (Avijja) results in wrong thought, wrong speech and wrong action. 3rd and 4th NT

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #263 on: December 28, 2011, 03:53:36 pm »

So who do you think desigend human beings?

As supporter of evolutionary theory, my bet is on environmental pressures, and phenotypical expressions of human health such as:


Women (for example):

1.  Bilateral symmetry representative of reduced genetic flaws.
2.  Ample breasts for feeding children
3.  Good, solid teeth  for chewing leather goods
4.  Flexible spine for ample bending and digging in soil
5.  Shapely buttox with high gludes for foraging.
6.  Ample pelvis for child bearing.
7.  Soft flexible skin signaling ample estrogen.
8.  Stamina for food gathering.
9.  etc.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline francis

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #264 on: December 28, 2011, 07:06:31 pm »

So who do you think desigend human beings?

As supporter of evolutionary theory, my bet is on environmental pressures, and phenotypical expressions of human health such as:


Women (for example):

1.  Bilateral symmetry representative of reduced genetic flaws.
2.  Ample breasts for feeding children
3.  Good, solid teeth  for chewing leather goods
4.  Flexible spine for ample bending and digging in soil
5.  Shapely buttox with high gludes for foraging.
6.  Ample pelvis for child bearing.
7.  Soft flexible skin signaling ample estrogen.
8.  Stamina for food gathering.
9.  etc.

So no one person designed human beings.  We evolved out of the pools of amino acids.  I think that's as good an explanation as any.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #265 on: December 29, 2011, 02:16:03 am »
So who do you think desigend human beings?

It was God, wasn't it? :teehee:

Spiny

Offline t

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #266 on: December 29, 2011, 07:38:10 am »
Quote
Quote
So who do you think desigend human beings?


It was God, wasn't it? :teehee:

Spiny

Ahem...

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #267 on: December 30, 2011, 03:41:35 am »
Quote
Quote
So who do you think desigend human beings?


It was God, wasn't it? :teehee:

Spiny

Ahem...


 :teehee:
I'd love to see that on the roof of the Sistine Chapel...

Offline t

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #268 on: December 30, 2011, 04:26:25 am »
Quote
I'd love to see that on the roof of the Sistine Chapel...

Where have you been all this time...

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #269 on: December 31, 2011, 02:25:52 am »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

 


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