Author Topic: Dependent Origination  (Read 29155 times)

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #270 on: January 04, 2012, 05:45:32 am »
Dependent Upon Form

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #271 on: January 04, 2012, 06:08:29 am »
The Critical Path Vector

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Don Athukorala

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #272 on: January 11, 2012, 01:08:15 pm »
Derailed again
We began with asking the question “What is Dependent Origination and have now clearly demonstrated Buddha’s most profound teaching.
We began with Avijja in our brain - Avijja (ignorance - not seeing clearly, losing mindfulness)

and now we end up with soka-parideva-dukkha-domanassuppayasa (i.e., it ranges through sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair - so it ranges from being mildly upset to having an emotional breakdown)

This is DO

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #273 on: January 13, 2012, 02:55:44 am »
We began with Avijja in our brain - Avijja (ignorance - not seeing clearly, losing mindfulness)

I think avijja goes a lot deeper than merely "losing mindfulness".  It's effectively a state of delusion, which is the "default" for samsara. 

Spiny

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #274 on: January 13, 2012, 03:42:44 am »
I don't think so. It's just that mindfulness is actually deeper as we are used to think it is. Avijja  is also not something firm, it just comes and goes on and on, conditioned. *smile*

Quote
Falling Out of a Tree

...It's the same with dependent co-arising. "Ignorance is the condition for fabrications. Fabrications are the condition for consciousness. Consciousness is the condition for name and form." We've studied this and memorized it, and it's true, the way the Buddha has divided things up like this for students to study. But when these things actually arise, they're too fast for you to count.

It's like falling from the top of a tree — thump! — to the ground. We don't know which branches we've passed. The moment the mind is struck by a good object, if it's something it likes, it goes straight to "good." It doesn't know the connecting steps in between. They follow in line with the texts, but they also go outside of the texts. They don't say, "Right here is ignorance. Right here is fabrication. Right here is consciousness. Right here is name and form." They don't have signs for you to read. It's like falling out of a tree. The Buddha talks about the mental moments in full detail, but I use the comparison with falling out of a tree. When you slip out of a tree — thump! — you don't measure how many feet and inches you've fallen. All you know is you've crashed to the ground and are already hurting.


Offline Amulet

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #275 on: May 16, 2012, 04:37:44 am »
Quote
Upadana paccaya bhavo (bhava means becoming - this is the thrill of getting what you want)

Becoming is an invisible process pushed into motion by our craving desire to repeat the thrill
worldly sensory thrills are transitory and fade, like the satisfaction from a coffee, or sex or a cigarette

Only when we see (insight meditation) that the striving after impermanent satisfactory sensations only leads to the 'repeat' effect and once the satisfaction fades, after a while, the craving for re-fulfillment recurs

this is what we call 'watta chakra' the turning wheel
We perpetuate the process, and it is this inclination that is present within our hearts, which is the driving energy of upadhana (addiction for a repeat experience)

This Upadhana sensation is precisely what is the cause of Bhava (becoming)

Now as to 'Becoming'
we never get to BE, only ever 'in the process of becoming'
we are all 'inbetweenies' and between leaving one state and becoming another
its all just a roiling sea of becoming and shapes trying to take on some substance and 'BE' (exist in a fixed way)
But they fall apart in the same moment these shapes rise up and try to form themself, and they fall back into the great ocean of impermanence

the closes we can ever get to really Being something is 'becoming'
We are always changing and in flux as is everything, because nothing can be held in the same state for more than a split instant (not even that because the unit of an instant vectors off into infinity too and has inbetween sub units of measurement forever.. there is no such thing as a 'single instant' so nothing ever exists even for an instant.. only is in process of becoming)
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Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #276 on: December 03, 2012, 06:16:01 am »
I was thinking again recently about the "psychological" interpretation of dependent origination and I'm still not convinced, partly because it isn't supported by the suttas and partly because it doesn't resonate atall with my own practice.

In the suttas the main treatment of dependent origination ( DO ) is in SN12, The Connected Discourses on Causation. 
Near the beginning, at SN12.2, is a section called "Analysis of Dependent Origination", which defines the nidanas, the 12 links of DO.  These definitions are quite unambiguous and simply don't support the psychological interpretation of DO.  Most obviously, birth, ageing and death are described straightforwardly as physical events, not psychologically as the birth and death of a self ( whatever ).  And similarly for the other nidanas.  And of course these nidana definitions are confirmed in MN9, the Sutta on Right View.

The psychological interpretation of DO relies on the idea of self-view being repeatedly reborn, but in the suttas self-view, like the taints, is consistently described as an underlying tendency, a deeply-ingrained chronic state of mind - and that's also how I've experienced it in practice. 
So for me the idea of self-view being repeatedly reborn is both crude and innacurate.  As an analogy it's like watching an apple fall from a tree and saying: "Look, gravity has been reborn again."  Completely missing the point.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 06:17:44 am by Pedantic Porpoise »

Offline ground

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #277 on: December 03, 2012, 09:38:03 pm »
Quote
He knows without doubt or hesitation that whatever arises is merely dukkha[8] that what passes away is merely dukkha and such knowledge is his own, not depending on anyone else. ...
Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata[10] teaches a doctrine of the middle: Conditioned by ignorance are the formations ... "

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.010.wlsh.html


From the outset there is no-thing, no consciousness/idea/ideal/wanting/striving/religion, no dukkha, no like, no dislike, no thinking about and no conclusion "this is" or "this is not", no "I", no "mine", no "for me", no view, no interpretation of this and that ...  whatever arises is merely dukkha.  :fu:

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #278 on: December 04, 2012, 05:51:02 am »
From the outset there is no-thing, no consciousness/idea/ideal/wanting/striving/religion, no dukkha, no like, no dislike, no thinking about and no conclusion "this is" or "this is not", no "I", no "mine", no "for me", no view, no interpretation of this and that ...  whatever arises is merely dukkha.  :fu:

So there is no dukkha, but whatever arises is merely dukkha?  Are you talking about sunyata here?

Offline ground

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #279 on: December 04, 2012, 09:02:49 pm »
Not anything at all.  What is talking?  :fu:
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 09:05:27 pm by ground »

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #280 on: December 05, 2012, 04:14:19 am »
Not anything at all.  What is talking?  :fu:

This is too cryptic for me.

Offline ground

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #281 on: December 05, 2012, 08:11:05 pm »
Not anything at all.  What is talking?  :fu:

This is too cryptic for me.
What is "for me"? It is consciousness of self. Consciousness needs to graps/affirm itself through "it is this" and "it is that".  :fu:

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #282 on: December 10, 2012, 03:58:56 am »
Not anything at all.  What is talking?  :fu:

This is too cryptic for me.
What is "for me"? It is consciousness of self. Consciousness needs to graps/affirm itself through "it is this" and "it is that".  :fu:

 :wacky:

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #283 on: December 23, 2012, 03:59:20 am »
I have recently been concentrating on the transcendental aspects of DO, which allows exit from the samsaric loop, which is DO.  This path begins with "faith"  as found in The Upanisa Sutta.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html

Quote
Mundane Order
Ignorance (avijja)
Kamma formations (sankhara)
Consciousness (viññana)
Mentality-materiality (namarupa)
Sixfold sense base (salayatana)
Contact (phassa)
Feeling (vedana)
Craving (tanha)
Clinging (upadana)
Existence (bhava)
Birth (jati)
Suffering (dukkha)

Transcendental Order

Faith (saddha)
Joy (pamojja)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquillity (passaddhi)
Happiness (sukha)
Concentration (samadhi)
Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)
Disenchantment (nibbida)
Dispassion (viraga)
Emancipation (vimutti)
Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 04:02:09 am by Bodhisatta2012 »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #284 on: December 23, 2012, 06:39:09 am »
I have recently been concentrating on the transcendental aspects of DO, which allows exit from the samsaric loop, which is DO.  This path begins with "faith"  as found in The Upanisa Sutta.

Faith (saddha)
Joy (pamojja)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquillity (passaddhi)
Happiness (sukha)
Concentration (samadhi)
Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana)
Disenchantment (nibbida)
Dispassion (viraga)
Emancipation (vimutti)
Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana)
[/quote]

Yes, it's a good teaching.  Are you well? :)

 


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