Author Topic: Dependent Origination  (Read 52340 times)

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2010, 04:57:13 am »
My understanding is that suffering, as Caz put it, is a mental phenomena, but rebirth, aging disease, death, and rebirth are as a result of residual karmic effects, which have not yet given fruit, and will remain in effect until coming to fruition.  Once karmic effect has been fully expressed or fruited to use Buddhist terminology, then those who are unbound, extinguished, and crossed-over are no longer subject to karmic-effect.  Buddhas certainly are not.

The confusion regarding this concept is expressed is suttas such as this:
Quote
SN 44.1 PTS: S iv 374 CDB ii 1380
Khema Sutta: With Khema
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2010
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. And on that occasion the bhikkhuni Khema, wandering on tour among the Kosalans, had taken up residence between Savatthi and Saketa at Toranavatthu. Then King Pasenadi Kosala, while traveling from Saketa to Savatthi, took up a one-night residence between Savatthia and Saketa at Toranavatthu. Then he addressed a certain man, "Come, now, my good man. Find out if in Toranavatthu there's the sort of brahman or contemplative I might visit today."

"As you say, sire," the man replied to the king, but having roamed all over Toranavatthu he did not see the sort of brahman or contemplative the king might visit. But he did see the bhikkhuni Khema residing in Toranavatthu. On seeing her, he went to King Pasenadi Kosala and on arrival said to him, "Sire, in Toranavatthu there is no brahman or contemplative of the sort your majesty might visit. But there is, however, a bhikkhuni named Khema, a disciple of the Blessed One, worthy and rightly self-awakened. And of this lady, this admirable report has spread about: 'She is wise, competent, intelligent, learned, a fluent speaker, admirable in her ingenuity.' Let your majesty visit her."

Then King Pasenadi Kosala went to the bhikkhuni Khema and, on arrival, having bowed down to her, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to her, "Now then, lady, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"That, great king, has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

"Well then, lady, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Great king, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

"Then does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"

"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"

"Well then, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"Now, lady, when asked if the Tathagata exists after death, you say, 'That has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata exists after death."' When asked if the Tathagata does not exist after death... both exists and does not exist after death... neither exists nor does not exist after death, you say, 'That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death."' Now, what is the cause, what is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"Very well, then, great king, I will question you in return about this very same matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think great king: Do you have an accountant or actuary or mathematician who can count the grains of sand in the river Ganges as 'so many grains of sand' or 'so many hundreds of grains of sand' or 'so many thousands of grains of sand' or 'so many hundreds of thousands of grains of sand'?"

"No, lady."

"Then do you have an accountant or calculator or mathematician who can count the water in the great ocean as 'so many buckets of water' or 'so many hundreds of buckets of water' or 'so many thousands of buckets of water' or 'so many hundreds of thousands of buckets of water'?"

"No, lady. Why is that? The great ocean is deep, boundless, hard to fathom."

"Even so, great king, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, great king, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the ocean. 'The Tathagata exists after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata both exists and doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply.

"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, great king, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the ocean. 'The Tathagata exists after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata both exists and doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply." [1]

Then King Pasenadi Kosala, delighting in & approving of the bhikkhuni Khema's words, got up from his seat, bowed down to her and — keeping her to his right — departed.

Then at another time he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there [he asked the Blessed One the same questions he had asked the bhikkhuni Khema, and received precisely the same responses and analogies. Then he exclaimed:]

"Amazing, lord! Astounding! How the meaning and phrasing of the teacher and disciple agree, coincide, and do not diverge from one another with regard to the supreme teaching! Recently, lord, I went to the bhikkhuni Khema and, on arrival, asked her about this matter, and she answered me with the same words, the same phrasing, as the Blessed One. Amazing, lord! Astounding! How the meaning and phrasing of the teacher and disciple agree, coincide, and do not diverge from one another with regard to the supreme teaching!

"Now, lord, we must go. Many are our duties, many our responsibilities."

"Then do, great king, what you think it is now time to do."

So King Pasenadi Kosala, delighting in and approving of the Blessed One's words, got up from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and — keeping him to his right — departed.


resource:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.001.than.html
 

When asked, Buddha clarifies with this:


Quote
SN 44.3 PTS: S iv 384 CDB ii 1383
Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta: Sariputta and Kotthita (1)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2004–2010
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. Then in the evening, Ven. Maha Kotthita emerged from his seclusion and went to Ven. Sariputta and exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Now then, friend Sariputta, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"That, friend, has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

"Well then, friend Sariputta, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

"Then does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"

"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death.'"

"Well then, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"

"Now, friend Sariputta, when asked if the Tathagata exists after death, you say, 'That has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata exists after death."' When asked if the Tathagata does not exist after death... both exists and does not exist after death... neither exists nor does not exist after death, you say, 'That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death."' Now, what is the cause, what is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in form. 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' is immersed in form. 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' is immersed in form. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is immersed in form.

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in feeling...

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in perception...

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in fabrication...

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in consciousness. 'The Tathagata does not exist after death' is immersed in consciousness. 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' is immersed in consciousness. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is immersed in consciousness.

"This is the cause, this is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One."


resource:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.003.than.html
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 05:07:47 am by Bodhisatta2010 »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2010, 05:32:38 am »
Once, a couple of years ago, I heard it said "We don't teach emptiness to beginners because the first thing they do with it is fall into nihilism."

  I thought gee that's kinda harsh, then proceeded forth forewarned, forearmed, clear minded and ready. And of course I fell straight in to nihilism. Since then, I've watched any number of people take the same fall. The more educated minds just do it in a more complicated way.

  So I think it is worth reiterating that

Emptiness is not telling us things don't exist.

It is as pejorative to describe any Buddhist school as 'nihilistic' as it is to call a Buddhist school 'Hinayana'. Yet some still do so as some kind of eltitist put-down.

Here are some of the views we can cling to:

Nothing exists independent of the causes and conditions which give rise to it.

To the deluded mind, nothing exists which is not tainted with self-view.

It's a jump from there to say that nothing exists outside of the mind. 

It's a leap from there to say that nothing exists outside of the mind, even mind itself.

It's a hop, skip and a jump to say that nothing exists, but I'll accept some logical basis for our inability to prove it, such as impermanence and change over time:

Whatever we think of is already in the  'past', and also that thought itself has ceased to be.  We can't touch the future or the past - can we touch the 'now'?

We may be able to show that a phenomenon existed in the past, through the consequences of its presence, and we may be able to show what may happen in the future because we see the causes and conditions, but if nobody can point to 'now' how can we be sure any phenomena exists 'now'?

Does the existence of a continuum of past and future prove that there is a single point which we may identify as 'the present'?  If not, then can we logically disprove nihilism?  It is more logical to deny the concept of 'the present', as a mundane convention, an entirely erroneous assumption.



Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2010, 06:28:00 am »
Suffering is a state of mind.  :pray:

Yes, that's how I see it.  My uncertainty is why ageing, disease and death are traditionally included in descriptions of dukkha - these appear to be physical events rather than what we might "mental" suffering. 

Spiny
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Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2010, 06:34:43 am »
My understanding is that suffering, as Caz put it, is a mental phenomena, but rebirth, aging disease, death, and rebirth are as a result of residual karmic effects, which have not yet given fruit, and will remain in effect until coming to fruition.  

But if we agree that suffering ( dukkha ) is a mental phenomenon, then why do the traditional descriptions of dukkha include physical events like birth, ageing, disease and death?
It seems to me important to really understand what dukkha means, and what the cessation of dukkha means, because without that understanding the real significance of the the Noble Truths and DO will not be clear.

Spiny
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Caz

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2010, 07:40:23 am »
Suffering is a state of mind.  :pray:

Yes, that's how I see it.  My uncertainty is why ageing, disease and death are traditionally included in descriptions of dukkha - these appear to be physical events rather than what we might "mental" suffering. 

Spiny

Mental and physical suffering to an untamed mind such occurences are Dukkha.  :pray:
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We would like to request you to please respect this precious Dharma book, which functions to free living beings from suffering permanently. If you continually read and practice the advice in this book, eventually your problems caused by anger, attachment and ignorance will cease.

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Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2010, 08:46:23 am »
You seem to be saying that a Buddha isn't subject to suffering.  But traditional descriptions of dukkha include sickness, ageing and death, to which a Buddha is still subject.  How do you account for this apparent inconsistency?
From the Milindapanha
Quote
4. “Does he who will not be reborn feel any painful
feeling?”
“He may feel physical pain, O king, but not mental
pain.”
“If he feels painful feelings then why doesn’t he just
die and attain the extinction of grasping, and put an end to
suffering?”
“The arahant has no fondness for or aversion to life.
He does not shake down the unripe fruit but awaits the
time of its maturity.

Quote
“Because of the untrained state of his mind. Like a
hungry ox tied up by a weak grass rope would easily break
free, so an ordinary man’s mind becomes agitated by pain,
so he feels mental pain too. However, the arahant’s mind is
well trained, so when his body is affected by pain he fixes
his mind firmly on the idea of impermanence. His mind is
not agitated and he feels no mental pain, just as the trunk of
a great tree is unmoved by the wind although its branches
may sway.”
Quote
“O king, nibbàna has no pain; what you call pain is not
nibbàna. It is true that those who seek nibbàna experience pain
and discomfort but afterwards they experience the unalloyed
bliss of nibbàna.
:namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2010, 09:56:37 am »
Spiny,  Good stuff from Greg.  He's got it right on the money according to my understanding from study.  

Keeping in mind that The Law of Kamma is a special subset of Dependent Origination, and adding only that karmic effect results from kamma (intentions) and the actions (karmic effect of forming an intention), which derived of intentions are mental factors.  Therefore the karmic effects are initiated by the formation of the mental factors of intentions, which result in intentional actions, which cause physical effects.  Physical benefit or non-benefit result from the chain of events begining with the formation of the intention.  Consequences of the formation of the intention are both mental and physical.  The physical results are obvious and observable by both the practitioner and observers.  The mental consequences can only be observed by the practitioner.  Examples would be suffering, stress, and dissatisfaction such as anxiety, worry, or regret upon observation of the physical effects, or guilt as a result of the realization of what non-beneficial results were observed by the practitioner.  Beneficial results, on the other hand, would of course result in joyful, pleasant, and enjoyable mental effects upon realizing the benefits derived of acting upon the beneficial intention.

Dukkha is guaranteed as a result, as Greg pointed out, from attachment to such beneficial results because of their dependently arisen, and inherently impermanent nature.

My understanding is that suffering, as Caz put it, is a mental phenomena, but rebirth, aging disease, death, and rebirth are as a result of residual karmic effects, which have not yet given fruit, and will remain in effect until coming to fruition.  

But if we agree that suffering ( dukkha ) is a mental phenomenon, then why do the traditional descriptions of dukkha include physical events like birth, ageing, disease and death?
It seems to me important to really understand what dukkha means, and what the cessation of dukkha means, because without that understanding the real significance of the the Noble Truths and DO will not be clear.

Spiny
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 09:58:39 am by Bodhisatta2010 »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2010, 02:26:04 am »
Because of the untrained state of his mind. Like a
hungry ox tied up by a weak grass rope would easily break
free, so an ordinary man’s mind becomes agitated by pain,
so he feels mental pain too. However, the arahant’s mind is
well trained, so when his body is affected by pain he fixes
his mind firmly on the idea of impermanence. His mind is
not agitated and he feels no mental pain, just as the trunk of
a great tree is unmoved by the wind although its branches
may sway.”
“O king, nibbàna has no pain; what you call pain is not
nibbàna. It is true that those who seek nibbàna experience pain
and discomfort but afterwards they experience the unalloyed
bliss of nibbàna. :namaste:

Thanks for the quotes, which seem to support the distinction we've been making between physical v. mental suffering / pain.  
But my question remains:  if dukkha is mental suffering, why are physical events like disease, ageing and death included in traditional descriptions of dukkha?  A Buddha is still subject to these physical events, which implies a Buddha is still subject to dukkha, which doesn't sound right.

Spiny
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2010, 02:28:55 am »
Keeping in mind that The Law of Kamma is a special subset of Dependent Origination, and adding only that karmic effect results from kamma (intentions) and the actions (karmic effect of forming an intention), which derived of intentions are mental factors.  Therefore the karmic effects are initiated by the formation of the mental factors of intentions, which result in intentional actions, which cause physical effects.  Physical benefit or non-benefit result from the chain of events begining with the formation of the intention.  Consequences of the formation of the intention are both mental and physical.  

Ron, I don't see how this relates to the question I've posed.

Spiny
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Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2010, 03:11:04 am »
Thanks for the quotes, which seem to support the distinction we've been making between physical v. mental suffering / pain.  
But my question remains:  if dukkha is mental suffering, why are physical events like disease, ageing and death included in traditional descriptions of dukkha?  A Buddha is still subject to these physical events, which implies a Buddha is still subject to dukkha, which doesn't sound right.

Spiny
Dear Spiny, you are not taking into account dependent origination and are focusing only on the four noble truths.  Dependent origination states that ignorance is the condition that gives rise to blah... all the way down to birth, sickness, old age and death.  Without ignorance one does not experience blah... up to birth, old age and death.

From the point that the Buddha reaches enlightenment he no longer generates karma, BUT he is still subject to the ripening of past karma (which may produce the effects of illness and death) AND is subject to the karma (actions) of others.  Soooo.... while his past karma ripens but since he is no longer producing karma any sickness, pain etc... he undergoes will not cause him suffering (since he has overcome ignorance) and will not be a cause for further rebirths.
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2010, 03:19:41 am »
From the point that the Buddha reaches enlightenment he no longer generates karma, BUT he is still subject to the ripening of past karma (which may produce the effects of illness and death)...

But it's not "may", a human Buddha will definitely be subject to ageing and death, and probably disease.  These physical processes are included in descriptions of dukkha, which suggests a Buddha is still subject to this form of dukkha.  That's what I don't get.  It's possible that what is actually meant in descriptions of dukkha is that it's the fear of and aversion to these physical processes which is dukkha, but I don't think that's clear.

My concern is to better understand what dukkha really is and what the cessation of dukkha really means, which I see as a crucial foundation for understanding both DO and the Noble Truths. 
I am concerned here specifically with what the cessation of dukkha means for a living Buddha, not what it might mean once that Buddha dies.

Spiny
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2010, 04:33:47 am »
You forget the definition of kamma.  Kamma is the result of intentional action.  Rebirth, aging, disease and death are the result of "past" kamma, else he wouldn't have been reborn.  However, in Buddha's case, according to the stories/myths, he was asked by a great Brahma to return to the human realm to teach The Dhamma.  I have read other stories/myths which stated that Bodhisatta's who only had one more rebirth live in Tushita Heaven and move to life in the human or Deva realms for their last rebirth.  I have no way of validating or verifying this until I get to that stage.  If your get there first, let me know how it works out for you.

Before his final assignment , remember, according to the stories/myths that Buddha was teaching The Dhamma in the Deva Realms and to an assembly of gods.  Then he voluntarily chose to return.  Once he attained tathagata, no more rebirths, no more aging, no more disease, no more death, no more rebirth unless he so chooses.
He became totally exempt from kamma.

Another Buddhist factoid to remember is that kamma is but a subset of dependent origination, much like all horses are quadrupeds, but not all quadrupeds are horses.  Horses are a proper subset of quadrupeds as kamma is a proper subset of dependent origination.  Another member of this set called DO is simple cause and effect such as is found in nature and in the cosmic universe.  Only sentient life is subject to kamma according to Buddhist teaching.

From the point that the Buddha reaches enlightenment he no longer generates karma, BUT he is still subject to the ripening of past karma (which may produce the effects of illness and death)...

But it's not "may", a human Buddha will definitely be subject to ageing and death, and probably disease.  These physical processes are included in descriptions of dukkha, which suggests a Buddha is still subject to this form of dukkha.  That's what I don't get.  It's possible that what is actually meant in descriptions of dukkha is that it's the fear of and aversion to these physical processes which is dukkha, but I don't think that's clear.

My concern is to better understand what dukkha really is and what the cessation of dukkha really means, which I see as a crucial foundation for understanding both DO and the Noble Truths.  
I am concerned here specifically with what the cessation of dukkha means for a living Buddha, not what it might mean once that Buddha dies.

Spiny
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 04:53:29 am by Bodhisatta2010 »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2010, 06:11:36 am »
Dear Spiny, don't pick and choose bits out of what I say in order to compound your inability to comprehend.  Of course the Buddha got sick and died, we all know that much (I hope) but his sickness (due to being fed spolit food for example) did not cause him to suffer.  It caused his followers to suffer and they started debating whether to kick Cundas ass and the Buddha told them "NO!" Why? From the Milindapanha:
Quote
“It was said by the elders who convened the First Buddhist
Council, ‘When he had eaten Cunda the smith’s food, thus
have I heard, the Buddha felt a dire sickness, a sharp pain
even unto death.’  Yet the Blessed One also said, ‘These
two offerings of food, ânanda, are of equal merit and are
much more effective than any others: that, after which the Tathàgata
attains to supreme enlightenment [ie the alms given by the cow herd girl to Buddha under the Bodhi tree];
and that, after
which the Tathàgata attains to parinibbàna’.
“If severe pains fell upon him after taking that last
meal then the latter statement must be wrong.”
“The last offering of food is of great advantage because
of the Tathàgata’s attainment of parinibbàna. It was
not because of the food that the sickness fell upon the Blessed
One but because of the extreme weakness of his body
and the proximity of his death. These two offerings of food
were of great and incomparable merit because of the attainment
of the nine successive absorptions in forward and reverse
order, which the Tathàgata gained after partaking of
that food.”
So not only did he not suffer from the sickness caused by eating spoilt food but praised the entire ordeal since it was the means by which he entered his parinibbana!!!
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2010, 06:16:38 am »
More for you to mull over
Quote
57. The Mastery of the Arahants
“You say that the arahant feels only one kind of feeling;
physical feeling but not mental feeling.192 How can this be
so? The arahant keeps going by means of his body. Has he
then no power over his body? Even a bird is the ruler over
the nest in which it dwells.”
“O king, there are ten conditions inherent in the body
over which the arahant has no control: cold, heat, hunger,
thirst, excrement, urine, fatigue, old age, disease and death.
Just as all beings living on the great earth depend on it but
have no control over it, so the arahant depends on his body
but has no control over it.”
“Why, Nàgasena, does the ordinary man feel
bodily and mental feeling?”
“Because of the untrained state of his mind. Like a
hungry ox tied up by a weak grass rope would easily break
free, so an ordinary man’s mind becomes agitated by pain,
so he feels mental pain too. However, the arahant’s mind is
well trained, so when his body is affected by pain he fixes
his mind firmly on the idea of impermanence. His mind is
not agitated and he feels no mental pain, just as the trunk of
a great tree is unmoved by the wind although its branches
may sway.”

and this
Quote
“Like food, which sustains life, nibbàna drives away
old age and death; it increases the spiritual strength of
beings; it gives the beauty of virtue, it removes the distress
of the defilements, it relieves the exhaustion of all suffering.
And , of course, the thing to remember is that the four noble truths were expounded to, and apply to, UNENLIGHTENED BEINGS, samsaric beings for whom petty nonsense like birth, old age, sickness and death are sources of suffering (because of their ignorance).  If one has realised the emptiness of self and all phenomena then who gets sick?  Who ages?  Who dies?  Who suffers?
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Dependent Origination
« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2010, 06:38:16 am »
You forget the definition of kamma.  Kamma is the result of intentional action.  Rebirth, aging, disease and death are the result of "past" kamma, else he wouldn't have been reborn.  

However we want to explain it, a Buddha is still subject to the physical processes of ageing, sickness and death, which are traditionally included in descriptions of dukkha. 
A Buddha is clearly still subject to these physical processes, so is he not therefore still subject to dukkha?  It's a straightforward question.

Spiny
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

 


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