Author Topic: Do Buddhists Believe in God?  (Read 683 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2017, 02:45:27 am »
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THIS SET OF VALUES, which gives preference to happiness over justice when there’s a conflict between the two, doesn’t sit very well with many Western Buddhists. “Isn’t justice a larger and nobler goal than happiness?” we think. The short answer to this question relates to the Buddha’s compassion: Seeing that we’ve all done wrong in the past, his compassion extended to wrong-doers as well as to those who’ve been wronged. For this reason, he taught the way to the end of suffering regardless of whether that suffering was “deserved” or not.
For the long answer, though, we have to turn and look at ourselves.

Many of us born and educated in the West, even if we’ve rejected the monotheism that shaped our culture, tend to hold to the idea that there are objective standards of justice to which everyone should conform. When distressed over the unfair state of society, we often express our views for righting wrongs, not as suggestions of wise courses of action, but as objective standards as to how everyone is duty-bound to act. We tend not to realize, though, that the very idea that those standards could be objective and universally binding makes sense only in the context of a monotheistic worldview: one in which the universe was created at a specific point in time—say, by Abraham’s God or by Aristotle’s Unmoved Mover—with a specific purpose. In other words, we maintain the idea of objective justice even though we’ve abandoned the worldview that underpins the idea and makes it valid.

For example, retributive justice—the justice that seeks to right old wrongs by punishing the first wrongdoer and/or those who responded excessively to the first wrong—demands a specific beginning point in time so that we can determine who threw the first stone and tally up the score of who did what after that first provocation.

Restorative justice—the justice that seeks to return situations to their proper state before the first stone was thrown—requires not only a specific beginning point in time, but also that that beginning point be a good place to which to return.

Distributive justice—the justice that seeks to determine who should have what, and how resources and opportunities should be redistributed from those who have them to those who should have them—requires a common source, above and beyond individuals, from which all things flow and that sets the purposes those things should serve.
Only when their respective conditions are met can these forms of justice be objective and binding on all. In the Buddha’s worldview, though, none of these conditions hold. People have tried to import Western ideas of objective justice into the Buddha’s teachings—some have even suggested that this will be one of the great Western contributions to Buddhism, filling in a serious lack—but there is no way that those ideas can be forced on the Dhamma without doing serious damage to the Buddhist worldview. This fact, in and of itself, has prompted many people to advocate jettisoning the Buddhist worldview and replacing it with something closer to one of our own. But a careful look at that worldview, and the consequences that the Buddha drew from it, shows that the Buddha’s teachings on how to find social harmony without recourse to objective standards of justice has much to recommend it.
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Offline ground

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2017, 03:07:33 am »
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...

Many of us born and educated in the West, even if we’ve rejected the monotheism that shaped our culture, tend to hold to the idea that there are objective standards of justice to which everyone should conform....



The western standards do not need theism and are not standards of justice but objective standards of law.

There is no need for morality or ethics if everybody sticks to law. That is the secular western view which is valid.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2017, 03:18:11 am »
Those are child thought, not knowing the world, especially pain, and the sentence "if everybody sticks to law" shows exact that the God-idea is not abounded. Still deep in objektivication and papanca caught and that philosophy does not set free a mind...  :wink1:

(Ex) Brothers and sisters here, you all have the same problem and do not see that you "fight" just your self in disputing with others. Start to learn and serious practicing!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 03:20:42 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2017, 03:20:35 am »
Those are child thought, not knowing the world, especially pain, and the sentence "if everybody sticks to law" shows exact that the God-idea is not abounded. Still deep in objektivication and papanca caught and that philosophy does not set free a mind...  :wink1:


you can see in Myanmar what happens when religious morality replaces secular law which is based on constitutional human rights in western societies:
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/general-buddhism-discussion/buddhist-mobs-cause-muslims-to-leave/msg89921/?topicseen#new

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2017, 03:22:36 am »
Aja... ground has fallen to ground... and vibes in pain from papanca... who ever thought that such can happen, is still present...m  :teehee:
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Offline ground

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2017, 03:24:19 am »
Aja... ground has fallen to ground... and vibes in pain from papanca... who ever thought that such can happen, is still present...m  :teehee:
your irrational talk won't eliminate the superiority of law over religious morality.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2017, 03:28:42 am »
Religious moral, law... thats the same clinging to rituals. If there is no right view: wisdom, the best thesis will be beateb by its antitheseis and one fall on the ground.  :wink1:

Why is that, because a aharahant naturally has nothing direct perceived, sitting in his livingroom looking that what was prepaired for supplying his believes.

anger... and lost is  :lmfao: in the wheel.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 03:34:06 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2017, 03:35:51 am »
Religious moral, law... thats the same clinging to rituals.
The efficiency of law in regulating social life can be observed. It is a matter of evidence.

If there is no right view: wisdom, the best thesis will be beateb by its antitheseis and one fall on the ground.  :wink1:
Can you try different English?

Why is that, because a aharahant naturally has nothing direct perceived, sitting in his livingroom looking that what was prepaired for supplying his believes.
Is this meant to be a rational expression in context of this communication?

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2017, 03:41:24 am »
Aharahat Groun needs to percive it by him self, there is no way to help him and guidiance he refuses, feeling save in his house surounded by laws, frigid if reallities enter "no, no, how can it be, that is against my standard how it should be" can terrible burden, this ratio, can't it?
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Offline ground

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2017, 03:46:06 am »
Aharahat Groun needs to percive it by him self, there is no way to help him and guidiance he refuses, feeling save in his house surounded by laws, frigid if reallities enter "no, no, how can it be, that is against my standard how it should be"

If you only accepted once and for all that there is no way other than getting to validly knowing for oneself then it would be the most natural fact for you that no individual needs any help from another and you could stop preaching.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2017, 03:54:52 am »
Thats wrong again, swifting from one extrem to the other. If means of generosity, virtue and universal goodwill can be hold, the way to gain wisdom can be supplied. For sure it would be not possible to heal an angry biting sick dog. He is neither capable to perceive goodness nor gratitude. So the giver has really no problems and is also not a magician. Does look good for many, not able to trace the way to direct perception by themselves and aversive against authority to stick on. Like "heros" they die... on their cross.
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Offline ground

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2017, 04:00:03 am »
Thats wrong again, swifting from one extrem to the other. If means of generosity, virtue and universal goodwill can be hold, the way to gain wisdom can be supplied. For sure it would be not possible to heal an angry biting sick dog. He is neither capable to perceive goodness nor gratitude. So the giver has really no problems and is also not a magician. Does look good for many, not able to trace the way to direct perception by themselves and aversive against authority to stick on. Like "heros" they die... on their cross.
If this is what you validly know for yourself and is not just mere belief then fine for you. However I know better when I validly know for myself. And so it is as to all individuals: every individual knows better than everybody else. Can you accept that every individual knows better than everybody else? I can because I am liberated from belief.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2017, 04:04:33 am »
You are... and delight to perceive it. That's ok, if that perception is fine for you., and is not breaking apart all the time, or never perceived. Every worldling does in that way and his certain perception is of cause the best.

Undestructable - oompf

Son of creation.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 04:15:33 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline Dharma Flower

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2017, 12:12:42 am »
It turns out that the actual survey question asked if you believe in God or a universal spirit, which are two different things.

"Universal spirit" is such a vague term though - it could be interpreted as deism, pantheism, pan-psychism, cosmic consciousness, spirit, etc.

Exactly, which is why the survey shouldn't be used to claim that a majority of American Buddhists believe in God.

Offline Dharma Flower

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Re: Do Buddhists Believe in God?
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2017, 12:13:58 am »
The Dharmakaya or universal Buddha-nature can be described as a universal spirit, in which we are all connected, since we all possess Buddha-nature as well.



I'm not convinced that Dharmakaya means "universal Buddha-nature", given that Dharmakaya is specific to Buddhas, and given that Buddha-nature is the potential for enlightenment.  I'm even less convinced that Dharmakaya can be accurately described as a "universal spirit".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmak%C4%81ya


According to The Avatamsaka Sutra, the Dharma-body is embodied in all bodies, not just the bodies of buddhas:

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The Dharmakaya, though manifesting itself in the triple world, is free from impurities and desires. It unfolds itself here, there and everywhere responding to the call of karma. It is not an individual reality, it is not a false existence, but is universal and pure. It comes from nowhere, it goes to nowhere; it does not assert itself, nor is it subject to annihilation. It is forever serene and eternal. It is the One, devoid of all determinations. This body of Dharma has no boundary, no quarters, but is embodied in all bodies. Its freedom or spontaneity is incomprehensible, its spiritual presence in things corporeal is incomprehensible. All forms of corporeality are involved therein, it is able to create all things. Assuming any concrete material body as required by the nature and condition of karma, it illuminates all creations. Though it is the treasure of intelligence, it is void of particularity. There is no place in the universe where this Body does not prevail. The universe becomes but this Body forever remains. It is free from all opposites and contraries, yet it is working in all things to lead them to Nirvana.
http://www.nembutsu.info/absolute2.htm


Perhaps the most well-known sutra example of the Dharmakaya is the Eternal Buddha of the Lotus Sutra:

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In chapter fifteen we are told how a vast multitude of bodhisattvas spring up from the earth in a miraculous manner in order that they may undertake the task of transmitting and protecting the teachings of the Buddha. When the Buddha is asked who these bodhisattvas are, he replies that they are persons whom he has taught and guided to enlightenment. His questioner quite naturally asks how Shakyamuni could possibly have taught and converted such immeasurable multitudes in the course of only forty years of preaching.

In chapter sixteen Shakyamuni reveals the answer to this riddle. The Buddha, he says, is an eternal being, ever present in the world, ever concerned for the salvation of all beings. He attained buddhahood an incalculably distant time in the past, and has never ceased to abide in the world since then. He seems at times to pass away into nirvana, and at other times to make a new appearance in the world. But he does this only so that living beings will not take his presence for granted and be slack in their quest for enlightenment. His seeming disappearance is no more than an expedient means that he employs to encourage them in their efforts, one of many such expedients that he adopts in order to fit his teachings to the different natures and capacities of individual beings and insure that those teachings will have relevance for all. From this we see that in the Lotus Sutra the Buddha, who had earlier been viewed as a historical personality, is now conceived as a being who transcends all boundaries of time and space, an ever-abiding principle of truth and compassion that exists everywhere and within all beings.
https://books.google.com/books?id=t9s7D0mIt44C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 12:37:28 am by Dharma Flower »

 


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