Author Topic: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness  (Read 723 times)

Offline andyr

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Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« on: August 10, 2017, 02:05:53 pm »
I think it does.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 02:11:04 pm »
I would say no. To be mindless, is not to be mindful or Full of Mind, Paying Attention, Active Awareness. To be mindless, or the term "mindless" might be more typically attributed to animalistic behaviors and activities, or operating without thinking about what is being done, the consequences or implications or results.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 04:04:33 pm »
Andy, you may find this short reads useful to understand Buddhas use of the word sati (usual translated mindfulness):

Mindfulness Defined and The Agendas of Mindfulness
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Offline ground

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 08:44:42 pm »
I think it does.

Only the term 'mindfulness' as such does imply its opposite 'mindlessness'. Every term implies its opposite term.
But 'mindfulness' as conventionally applied in buddhism always has the context of being mindful of a specific object. That means if your intent is to be mindful of A and you're thinking about B instead you're not mindless although you're not mindful as originally intended. But if your intent is to be mindful of A and you are actually mindful of A then as soon as the thought of B arises you drop it and return to A.

Of in the negative: you want to be mindful and avoid that the thought of A or emotion A does distract you then you are alert and take counter measures as soon as it arises. If you are not mindful then you will be distracted by A in which case you are following A which you originally wanted to avoid.

But of course one  could say there is either mindfulness as to original intent or mindlessness as to original intent but mindlessness as to original intent does not mean generally mindless.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 09:02:02 pm by ground »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 08:49:32 pm »
I think it does.

Only the term 'mindfulness' as such does imply its opposite 'mindlessness'. Every term implies its opposite term.
But 'mindfulness' as conventionally applied in buddhism always has the context of being mindful of a specific object. That means if your intent is to be mindful of A and you're thinking about B instead you're not mindless although you're not mindful as originally intended. But if your intent is to be mindful of A and you are actually mindful of A then as soon as the thought of B arises you drop it and return to A.

Yeah, I guess in normal English it might be useful to call it being "Focused" "Attentive" Un-distracted" and things like that.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 01:22:38 am »
I think it does.

What do you mean by "mindlessness"?

The basic function of mindfulness is paying attention.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 02:44:57 am »
Yeah, I've noticed a trend for a while, where people think Buddhism is just about totally being thoughtless, brainless, inconsiderate, not thinking anything, just blank and zombie-like. That is sooo not what I know, or would want anyway, for anyone lol. I guess maybe there is some kind of weird "no-suffering" in being a totally apathetic machine, but I really prefer people with hearts, people whose hearts show sensitivity and compassion, people who do really care, are really kind, they see a problem and they want to help and reach out and fix it even. From what I've understood of descriptions of the Buddha, he did not abandon people, but wanted to help them out, give them something to help them out and benefit them. It seemed like something good, something good was driving the whole affair, compassion is what it seemed like.

I don't think being a person with no heart, no softness, no ethics, no integrity, no decency, can ever be anything but a dead-head, even a criminal, a person with no moral compass. I don't think that was the goal of Buddhism at all. The Buddhism I know or try to talk about is all about the heart, all about being lovely, honorable, decent, ethical, kind, a force of good and cleansing and spreading the perfume of grace when and where possible. This also seemed the activity of the followers of the Buddha largely, and what they were often known for too.

I've seen what appears to be a massive sort of decay of this, the stifling of this, too much focus on self-preservation and the protection of social organisms rather than simply making goodness and beauty approachable to all. No thought? Pointless! Yeah, I can "stop thoughts", I have pretty good mental control, but big deal, there are many statements against just sitting around doing nothing, there is so much to gain and learn and good to spread through active engagement with the experience.

Be here, not "nowhere", which can be just another "elsewhere".

What I know as Mindfulness, is active attention and presence, and when one is awake, when one is alert and present and listening and not distracted, then you can see "Oh, maybe that thing isn't fitting because of this, I just noticed" because one is attentive. When one is not attentive, then they are crying and saying "Oh no! This will happen and that will happen and oh why does this happen ahhh!" they never noticing how it might be solved, what the problem really might be, etc.

Dr.Buddha gave what appears to me to be straightforward good advice, pay attention! pay attention with a good heart! be attentive to the calls and do what you can when you can. What is the right medicine? How to stop or reduce the suffering? How to take a sad song and make it better!

Offline francis

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 04:08:56 pm »
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 04:18:34 pm »
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

Offline francis

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 06:01:56 pm »
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 06:12:30 pm »
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.

I was talking about whatever Indian term you used first, the mindfulness one. Please refrain from hiding your beliefs and acting in a sneaky seeming manner. Please answer questions nicely and respond in kindness to my friendly comments, or simply say nothing at all to me if you can not contain your venomous sort of replies that passively insult and mislead, as I was speaking about mindfulness and you like a sneak tried to make it as if I was not. You live like this? It is a wicked way.

Offline francis

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2017, 06:49:39 pm »
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.

I was talking about whatever Indian term you used first, the mindfulness one. Please refrain from hiding your beliefs and acting in a sneaky seeming manner. Please answer questions nicely and respond in kindness to my friendly comments, or simply say nothing at all to me if you can not contain your venomous sort of replies that passively insult and mislead, as I was speaking about mindfulness and you like a sneak tried to make it as if I was not. You live like this? It is a wicked way.

The Artis Magistra,

Mate, I answered a question and you decided to comment. Best not say anything if you don’t know what you are talking about, especially when it comes to meditation.

:arrgh:
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2017, 09:04:58 pm »
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.

I was talking about whatever Indian term you used first, the mindfulness one. Please refrain from hiding your beliefs and acting in a sneaky seeming manner. Please answer questions nicely and respond in kindness to my friendly comments, or simply say nothing at all to me if you can not contain your venomous sort of replies that passively insult and mislead, as I was speaking about mindfulness and you like a sneak tried to make it as if I was not. You live like this? It is a wicked way.

The Artis Magistra,

Mate, I answered a question and you decided to comment. Best not say anything if you don’t know what you are talking about, especially when it comes to meditation.

:arrgh:

You tried to make it seem like I was talking about something else when I was clear that I was talking about Mindfulness in my comment, you are now trying to again say or imply "don't know what you are talking about". You're a rude person "mate", so learn some proper manners and act your age, you and VissudhiRaptor.

People on the internet are real people too, so don't think your nastiness doesn't count here.

Furthermore, I've responded to many of the silly and false implications you've made, and you haven't responded, so is your final refuge pretending to be an expert on "meditation" of one strict sort which someone in the jungle told you about?

Foreign colonists of ideas are pretty annoying types aren't they, I've seen lots like it. Now understand, things called Buddhism have had lots of various ideas, some of which I made mention of, and there were variations to what "Mindfulness" was understood as and used for and as, as well, throughout history attributed to people who were and are called "Buddhists".

Now stop trying so hard to be a monster, you're a natural, you don't need to try so hard, and see if you can actually start behaving nicely and like a good person who doesn't use every remark to make a swipe like a frustrated old western atheist.

Please also respond to that lengthy comment I left you in my Dharma thread, and read all the links fully and properly, so that you get it through your head or whats left of it after meditation, that many different things were called Buddhism and not just your jungle atheist colonizing stuff. Thank you "mate".

Australia sounds like its a dreadful place for the Dharma with these kinds of people walking around pretending to be Buddhists who are just trying to give some history to their Western Materialist Atheism and frustrations.

Why hasn't meditation led you to be a decent and noble person at all instead of constantly making swipes and being rude and insulting by constantly implying I am a fool, I don't know, I am not a Buddhist, etc etc. Get over your crazy hubris which seems to rule over you and VisuddhiRaptor and do a little reading and be a little nicer and nicer.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2017, 01:10:31 am »
Hi andyr,
Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation
With metta


Not really.  Mindfulness ( sati ) is practised using the four frames or foundations, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ( body, feeling, mind, mental objects ), and involves paying close attention to different aspects of experience.  Mindfulness is ideally a continuous practice, not just something done on the cushion.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html

In the Satipatthana Sutta mindfulness of breathing ( anapanasati ) is described in the first frame, mindfulness of the body.  Note that traditionally the breath is only one of 40 meditation objects.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:15:08 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2017, 01:24:53 am »
The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

The OP is actually about mindfulness ( sati ), not about anapanasati.

 


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