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A Mosaic of Traditions - One Virtual Sangha => The Dharma Express => Topic started by: andyr on August 10, 2017, 02:05:53 pm

Title: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: andyr on August 10, 2017, 02:05:53 pm
I think it does.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 10, 2017, 02:11:04 pm
I would say no. To be mindless, is not to be mindful or Full of Mind, Paying Attention, Active Awareness. To be mindless, or the term "mindless" might be more typically attributed to animalistic behaviors and activities, or operating without thinking about what is being done, the consequences or implications or results.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on August 10, 2017, 04:04:33 pm
Andy, you may find this short reads useful to understand Buddhas use of the word sati (usual translated mindfulness):

Mindfulness Defined (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/mindfulnessdefined_en.html) and The Agendas of Mindfulness (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/agendas_en.html)
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: ground on August 10, 2017, 08:44:42 pm
I think it does.

Only the term 'mindfulness' as such does imply its opposite 'mindlessness'. Every term implies its opposite term.
But 'mindfulness' as conventionally applied in buddhism always has the context of being mindful of a specific object. That means if your intent is to be mindful of A and you're thinking about B instead you're not mindless although you're not mindful as originally intended. But if your intent is to be mindful of A and you are actually mindful of A then as soon as the thought of B arises you drop it and return to A.

Of in the negative: you want to be mindful and avoid that the thought of A or emotion A does distract you then you are alert and take counter measures as soon as it arises. If you are not mindful then you will be distracted by A in which case you are following A which you originally wanted to avoid.

But of course one  could say there is either mindfulness as to original intent or mindlessness as to original intent but mindlessness as to original intent does not mean generally mindless.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 10, 2017, 08:49:32 pm
I think it does.

Only the term 'mindfulness' as such does imply its opposite 'mindlessness'. Every term implies its opposite term.
But 'mindfulness' as conventionally applied in buddhism always has the context of being mindful of a specific object. That means if your intent is to be mindful of A and you're thinking about B instead you're not mindless although you're not mindful as originally intended. But if your intent is to be mindful of A and you are actually mindful of A then as soon as the thought of B arises you drop it and return to A.

Yeah, I guess in normal English it might be useful to call it being "Focused" "Attentive" Un-distracted" and things like that.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 11, 2017, 01:22:38 am
I think it does.

What do you mean by "mindlessness"?

The basic function of mindfulness is paying attention.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 11, 2017, 02:44:57 am
Yeah, I've noticed a trend for a while, where people think Buddhism is just about totally being thoughtless, brainless, inconsiderate, not thinking anything, just blank and zombie-like. That is sooo not what I know, or would want anyway, for anyone lol. I guess maybe there is some kind of weird "no-suffering" in being a totally apathetic machine, but I really prefer people with hearts, people whose hearts show sensitivity and compassion, people who do really care, are really kind, they see a problem and they want to help and reach out and fix it even. From what I've understood of descriptions of the Buddha, he did not abandon people, but wanted to help them out, give them something to help them out and benefit them. It seemed like something good, something good was driving the whole affair, compassion is what it seemed like.

I don't think being a person with no heart, no softness, no ethics, no integrity, no decency, can ever be anything but a dead-head, even a criminal, a person with no moral compass. I don't think that was the goal of Buddhism at all. The Buddhism I know or try to talk about is all about the heart, all about being lovely, honorable, decent, ethical, kind, a force of good and cleansing and spreading the perfume of grace when and where possible. This also seemed the activity of the followers of the Buddha largely, and what they were often known for too.

I've seen what appears to be a massive sort of decay of this, the stifling of this, too much focus on self-preservation and the protection of social organisms rather than simply making goodness and beauty approachable to all. No thought? Pointless! Yeah, I can "stop thoughts", I have pretty good mental control, but big deal, there are many statements against just sitting around doing nothing, there is so much to gain and learn and good to spread through active engagement with the experience.

Be here, not "nowhere", which can be just another "elsewhere".

What I know as Mindfulness, is active attention and presence, and when one is awake, when one is alert and present and listening and not distracted, then you can see "Oh, maybe that thing isn't fitting because of this, I just noticed" because one is attentive. When one is not attentive, then they are crying and saying "Oh no! This will happen and that will happen and oh why does this happen ahhh!" they never noticing how it might be solved, what the problem really might be, etc.

Dr.Buddha gave what appears to me to be straightforward good advice, pay attention! pay attention with a good heart! be attentive to the calls and do what you can when you can. What is the right medicine? How to stop or reduce the suffering? How to take a sad song and make it better!
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on August 11, 2017, 04:08:56 pm
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 11, 2017, 04:18:34 pm
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on August 11, 2017, 06:01:56 pm
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 11, 2017, 06:12:30 pm
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.

I was talking about whatever Indian term you used first, the mindfulness one. Please refrain from hiding your beliefs and acting in a sneaky seeming manner. Please answer questions nicely and respond in kindness to my friendly comments, or simply say nothing at all to me if you can not contain your venomous sort of replies that passively insult and mislead, as I was speaking about mindfulness and you like a sneak tried to make it as if I was not. You live like this? It is a wicked way.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on August 11, 2017, 06:49:39 pm
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.

I was talking about whatever Indian term you used first, the mindfulness one. Please refrain from hiding your beliefs and acting in a sneaky seeming manner. Please answer questions nicely and respond in kindness to my friendly comments, or simply say nothing at all to me if you can not contain your venomous sort of replies that passively insult and mislead, as I was speaking about mindfulness and you like a sneak tried to make it as if I was not. You live like this? It is a wicked way.

The Artis Magistra,

Mate, I answered a question and you decided to comment. Best not say anything if you don’t know what you are talking about, especially when it comes to meditation.

:arrgh:
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 11, 2017, 09:04:58 pm
Hi andyr,

Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation

With metta

It also had some really interesting and cool extensive meanings among some groups of people who were thought to be Buddhist but you may not consider to be Buddhist which go beyond simple attention or awareness or shutting off internal dialogue, sometimes the ideas would get rather weird sounding or supernatural seeming, as to what the term was used for among some commentators, writers, teachers, etc. Some of that stuff can be interesting to look into if you were ever up to it, but I think you don't like that stuff very much. Maybe andyr would better benefit from it though.

The Artis Magistra,

The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

Again, please refrain from speculating and making assumptions about other people’s views.

I was talking about whatever Indian term you used first, the mindfulness one. Please refrain from hiding your beliefs and acting in a sneaky seeming manner. Please answer questions nicely and respond in kindness to my friendly comments, or simply say nothing at all to me if you can not contain your venomous sort of replies that passively insult and mislead, as I was speaking about mindfulness and you like a sneak tried to make it as if I was not. You live like this? It is a wicked way.

The Artis Magistra,

Mate, I answered a question and you decided to comment. Best not say anything if you don’t know what you are talking about, especially when it comes to meditation.

:arrgh:

You tried to make it seem like I was talking about something else when I was clear that I was talking about Mindfulness in my comment, you are now trying to again say or imply "don't know what you are talking about". You're a rude person "mate", so learn some proper manners and act your age, you and VissudhiRaptor.

People on the internet are real people too, so don't think your nastiness doesn't count here.

Furthermore, I've responded to many of the silly and false implications you've made, and you haven't responded, so is your final refuge pretending to be an expert on "meditation" of one strict sort which someone in the jungle told you about?

Foreign colonists of ideas are pretty annoying types aren't they, I've seen lots like it. Now understand, things called Buddhism have had lots of various ideas, some of which I made mention of, and there were variations to what "Mindfulness" was understood as and used for and as, as well, throughout history attributed to people who were and are called "Buddhists".

Now stop trying so hard to be a monster, you're a natural, you don't need to try so hard, and see if you can actually start behaving nicely and like a good person who doesn't use every remark to make a swipe like a frustrated old western atheist.

Please also respond to that lengthy comment I left you in my Dharma thread, and read all the links fully and properly, so that you get it through your head or whats left of it after meditation, that many different things were called Buddhism and not just your jungle atheist colonizing stuff. Thank you "mate".

Australia sounds like its a dreadful place for the Dharma with these kinds of people walking around pretending to be Buddhists who are just trying to give some history to their Western Materialist Atheism and frustrations.

Why hasn't meditation led you to be a decent and noble person at all instead of constantly making swipes and being rude and insulting by constantly implying I am a fool, I don't know, I am not a Buddhist, etc etc. Get over your crazy hubris which seems to rule over you and VisuddhiRaptor and do a little reading and be a little nicer and nicer.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 12, 2017, 01:10:31 am
Hi andyr,
Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation
With metta


Not really.  Mindfulness ( sati ) is practised using the four frames or foundations, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ( body, feeling, mind, mental objects ), and involves paying close attention to different aspects of experience.  Mindfulness is ideally a continuous practice, not just something done on the cushion.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html)

In the Satipatthana Sutta mindfulness of breathing ( anapanasati ) is described in the first frame, mindfulness of the body.  Note that traditionally the breath is only one of 40 meditation objects.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 12, 2017, 01:24:53 am
The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

The OP is actually about mindfulness ( sati ), not about anapanasati.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on August 12, 2017, 01:28:46 am
There are also another 39 kammaṭṭhāns (working-places) taught by the Buddha which are used for meditation, objects requiring mindfulness (sati) to be developed. Then it would be complete.

Both samatha (concentration) and vipassana (insight) meditation require the faculty of sati (remembering, keeping in mind).

Is that right Nyom Norman?
The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

The OP is actually about mindfulness ( sati ), not about anapanasati.
It can be guessed that this was the reason why Norman brought that up, as Francis started to lead in direction anapana. But just a guess. Oh just saw that my person thought Nyom Francis told that. Pardon for that mistake but maybe its useful anyway.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 12, 2017, 01:39:13 am
The question was asked about anapanasati (mindfulness), not samadhi.

The OP is actually about mindfulness ( sati ), not about anapanasati.

Ah! So he was trying to trick me! Why are these guys being so sneaky with me? This is scary! I was purposefully saying "The Indian Term" to remind him that this is an Indian religion that had an Indian context in many ways, which appears to be under attack by people trying to twist or hijack the meaning to fit new schools of thought, which isn't so bad if they weren't all smug about it and pretending that such is the "only way it ever was" and white-washing history and colonizing the ideas to impose Western Science Worship onto it all.

Thank you so much for clarifying! Out of the people on this website, you've appeared to come in defense of truth and say honest things at least, factual things which can be backed up, verified, looked into, confirmed. I really appreciate it.

francis identified himself as an accomplice to VisuddhiRaptor or of the same faction or a similar party, and appears to be using nasty tactics, I kind of even doubt the actual South-East Asian Jungle dudes they think they are friends with are so totally like them, but I don't know, maybe its gone so far but I kind of doubt it, and from what I know of Theravada monks, they seem to still be into many old or supernatural seeming ideas and aren't totally fundamentalist Western Science obsessed types to this degree.

I like Western Science even, but not when it becomes belligerence or trying to fool people or tearing apart 2500 years of history and development to try to change the meaning of everything or de-saturate everything of all its color and past and cultural history and interpretation just because it doesn't fit a certain new model, its like what the Extremist Materialist Communist parties were doing in some countries, its really terrible sometimes how extreme it can get when any philosophy is taken too far and used for extremist purposes or to suppress people and wipe out ideas.

I really think there are people here and of that sort, who would actually, if they could, burn books, burn records, change words, just to make it fit their ideas. I hope I never become like that.

All I am ever trying to say to francis, who has repeatedly made insulting suggestions towards me, is that Buddhism had a diverse history full of ideas and developments, it had a rich culture of art and beliefs, it was not all just extremist western atheism from Australia, and lots of people who were thought to be Buddhist or Buddhist influence seemed to believe in things that might be considered by Western Materialist Science Fundamentalists to be silly, superstitious, false, untrue, unseen, supernatural, theistic even or whatever else.

I think there is room in Buddhism, based on Buddhist history, for an open discussion, and mutual debate and reasoning, which has been going on for a long time anyway, and that saying to one group with different beliefs that does have a precedent and history that they are "not Buddhist" is nothing but hostility, coming from a people who are basically trying to completely distort real history and historical study and appreciation of Ancient culture called or considered Buddhist.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on August 12, 2017, 02:07:08 am
Hi andyr,
Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation
With metta


Not really.  Mindfulness ( sati ) is practised using the four frames or foundations, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ( body, feeling, mind, mental objects ), and involves paying close attention to different aspects of experience.  Mindfulness is ideally a continuous practice, not just something done on the cushion.
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url])

In the Satipatthana Sutta mindfulness of breathing ( anapanasati ) is described in the first frame, mindfulness of the body.  Note that traditionally the breath is only one of 40 meditation objects.


Spiny, you are really only telling half the story.

The mindfulness of breathing method of meditation is found in the Anapanasati Sutta (Mindfulness of Breathing) MN 118. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html) Satipatthana is another method of meditation used for Vipassana or Insight training.

The modern Theravadan Buddhist and the Vipassana or Insight meditation movements promote satipatthana, but you need anapana sati and sati patthana as outlined in the Noble Eightfold Path.  Step7. Right Mindfulness which is “traditionally” the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana).






Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 12, 2017, 02:10:15 am
Hi andyr,
Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation
With metta


Not really.  Mindfulness ( sati ) is practised using the four frames or foundations, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ( body, feeling, mind, mental objects ), and involves paying close attention to different aspects of experience.  Mindfulness is ideally a continuous practice, not just something done on the cushion.
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url])

In the Satipatthana Sutta mindfulness of breathing ( anapanasati ) is described in the first frame, mindfulness of the body.  Note that traditionally the breath is only one of 40 meditation objects.


Spiny, you are really only telling half the story.

The mindfulness of breathing method of meditation is found in the Anapanasati Sutta (Mindfulness of Breathing) MN 118. ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html[/url]) Satipatthana is another method of meditation used for Vipassana or Insight training.

The modern Theravadan Buddhist and the Vipassana or Insight meditation movements promote satipatthana, but you need anapanasati and satipatthana as outlined in the Noble Eightfold Path.  Step7. Right Mindfulness which is “traditionally” the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana).


Surely there were other ideas and interpretations too among various people called Buddhists, which did not relegate Mindfulness to only breathing exercises, but had extensive commentary on the concepts associated with the term being translated as that.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 13, 2017, 02:09:39 am
Hi andyr,
Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation
With metta


Not really.  Mindfulness ( sati ) is practised using the four frames or foundations, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ( body, feeling, mind, mental objects ), and involves paying close attention to different aspects of experience.  Mindfulness is ideally a continuous practice, not just something done on the cushion.
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url])

In the Satipatthana Sutta mindfulness of breathing ( anapanasati ) is described in the first frame, mindfulness of the body.  Note that traditionally the breath is only one of 40 meditation objects.


Spiny, you are really only telling half the story.

The modern Theravadan Buddhist and the Vipassana or Insight meditation movements promote satipatthana, but you need anapana sati and sati patthana as outlined in the Noble Eightfold Path.  Step7. Right Mindfulness which is “traditionally” the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana).


I think you are muddling Right Mindfulness with Right Concentration, ie muddling sati with samadhi.  I also think you are muddling a continuous practice ( mindfulness ) with a seated meditation ( anapanasati ).   Anapanasati is an important practice in the suttas, and it can be used to develop both samatha and vipassana ( tranquillity and insight ), but as I mentioned the breath is only one of 40 possible meditation objects.  For example I am currently doing kasina practice, using a blue disc.

Here is the definition for Right Mindfulness from the Magga-vibhanga Suttasutta, which describes the factors of the 8-fold path:

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html)

As for Right Concentration, it is described in this sutta in terms of the jhanas, as it usually is in the suttas. 
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on August 13, 2017, 03:37:37 am
Hi andyr,
Mindfulness generally means being present or aware, and not being caught up by internal dialogue. In Buddhism, mindfulness is practiced by doing the mindfulness of breathing meditation
With metta


Not really.  Mindfulness ( sati ) is practised using the four frames or foundations, as described in the Satipatthana Sutta ( body, feeling, mind, mental objects ), and involves paying close attention to different aspects of experience.  Mindfulness is ideally a continuous practice, not just something done on the cushion.
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html[/url])

In the Satipatthana Sutta mindfulness of breathing ( anapanasati ) is described in the first frame, mindfulness of the body.  Note that traditionally the breath is only one of 40 meditation objects.


Spiny, you are really only telling half the story.

The modern Theravadan Buddhist and the Vipassana or Insight meditation movements promote satipatthana, but you need anapana sati and sati patthana as outlined in the Noble Eightfold Path.  Step7. Right Mindfulness which is “traditionally” the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana).


I think you are muddling Right Mindfulness with Right Concentration, ie muddling sati with samadhi.  I also think you are muddling a continuous practice ( mindfulness ) with a seated meditation ( anapanasati ).   Anapanasati is an important practice in the suttas, and it can be used to develop both samatha and vipassana ( tranquillity and insight ), but as I mentioned the breath is only one of 40 possible meditation objects.  For example I am currently doing kasina practice, using a blue disc.

Here is the definition for Right Mindfulness from the Magga-vibhanga Suttasutta, which describes the factors of the 8-fold path:

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness."
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html[/url])

As for Right Concentration, it is described in this sutta in terms of the jhanas, as it usually is in the suttas.


Step Eight. Right Concentration (samadhi) is practicing the first four stages of jhana (dhyana) meditation.

Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 13, 2017, 03:57:38 am
Step Eight. Right Concentration (samadhi) is practicing the first four stages of jhana (dhyana) meditation.


Yes, though interestingly in this sutta samadhi is described in terms of samatha and vipassana: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html)

Your reference to "steps" sounds rather mechanistic - do you really see it like that?
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on August 13, 2017, 04:11:49 am
While other traditions also used samatha, the tool of vipassana, as an addition, is the special feature in Buddhas teaching here, meaning not only gaining high concentration (e.g. mindstate or level of dwelling) but also to inspect phenomenas there, how they arise and decay. On this level sati is again used.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on August 13, 2017, 04:19:45 am
While other traditions also used samatha, the tool of vipassana, as an addition, is the special feature in Buddhas teaching here, meaning not only gaining high concentration (e.g. mindstate or level of dwelling) but also to inspect phenomenas there, how they arise and decay. On this level sati is again used.

It's worth noting here the factors of enlightenment, including mindfulness, investigation and concentration.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Enlightenment

Personally I find this more useful than the 8-fold path model.
 
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on August 13, 2017, 04:50:32 am
Step Eight. Right Concentration (samadhi) is practicing the first four stages of jhana (dhyana) meditation.


Yes, though interestingly in this sutta samadhi is described in terms of samatha and vipassana: [url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.094.than.html[/url])

Your reference to "steps" sounds rather mechanistic - do you really see it like that?


The numbering is for convenience.The eight elements of the path are integrated, as they support each other. However, Right Mindfulness (samatha and vipassana) is seen in some circles as an important step to Right Concentration (samadhi) the dhyana’s. I suppose it depends what school you follow.


:r4wheel:
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on August 13, 2017, 04:54:11 am
While other traditions also used samatha, the tool of vipassana, as an addition, is the special feature in Buddhas teaching here, meaning not only gaining high concentration (e.g. mindstate or level of dwelling) but also to inspect phenomenas there, how they arise and decay. On this level sati is again used.

It's worth noting here the factors of enlightenment, including mindfulness, investigation and concentration.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Enlightenment

Personally I find this more useful than the 8-fold path model.

Thanks Spiny,

I had forgotten about The Seven Factors of Enlightenment.

With metta

Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on August 13, 2017, 05:54:04 am
While other traditions also used samatha, the tool of vipassana, as an addition, is the special feature in Buddhas teaching here, meaning not only gaining high concentration (e.g. mindstate or level of dwelling) but also to inspect phenomenas there, how they arise and decay. On this level sati is again used.

It's worth noting here the factors of enlightenment, including mindfulness, investigation and concentration.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Enlightenment

Personally I find this more useful than the 8-fold path model.

As far as investigated, its not possible to practice guided by the Seven Factors of Awakening, by a person not having gained path. But yes, it shows well that nothing can be gained by even just Right Concentration, Nyom Norman.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 13, 2017, 08:50:01 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana_Sutta
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on August 13, 2017, 08:52:41 pm
Wikipeadia is not a source that origins for in ways of Dhamma and therefore of no value for one how likes to grow in Dhamma.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 13, 2017, 09:08:54 pm
Wikipeadia is not a source that origins for in ways of Dhamma and therefore of no value for one how likes to grow in Dhamma.

It may have a link somewhere in there to the sutta in English translation, I think I clicked it from an earlier post of mine regarding the experience or appearance of Siddhis.

""The Buddhist fruit of the contemplative life[edit]
The Buddha then elaborated on his perspective regarding the benefits of the contemplative life, moving from the material to the spiritual:[4]

Solitude's delight: For instance, for slaves and farmers, freedom from servitude resulting in being "content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude"[5] as well as the veneration of others.
Virtue's pleasure: "[T]he monk ... consummate in virtue sees no danger anywhere from his restraint through virtue. Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being blameless."
Simplicity's contentment: "Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content."
Mental calm: With mindfulness and alertness (see sampajanna), a monk cleanses his mind of covetousness, ill will and anger, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and anxiety, and doubt (see the Five Hindrances).
Jhanic bliss: He attains the four jhanic states which are associated with the permeating of his body with rapture, pleasure, equanimity, and a pure, bright awareness.
Insight knowledge: "[W]ith his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.'"
Supernatural powers: "Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful.... He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far."
Mind reading: He can discern in others states of consciousness such as those with or without passion, lust, delusion, concentration, etc. (see the Satipatthana Sutta regarding mindfulness of the mind).

Three knowledges: He can recollect past lives, see the rebirth of other beings, and knows the ending of suffering and the fermentations of sensuality, becoming and ignorance.
Release from samsara: "His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
Upon hearing the Buddha's explanation, King Ajatasattu declared himself a lay follower of the Buddha.

The king's patricide and its karmic consequences[edit]
The king then confessed that he himself had killed his own father so as to become king. The Buddha replied:

"Yes, great king, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to kill your father — a righteous man, a righteous king — for the sake of sovereign rulership. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."[2]
The Buddha subsequently declared: "... Had [King Ajatasattu] not killed his father [King Bimbisara] — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."[6]" "
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on August 13, 2017, 09:30:08 pm
Just thought... (https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/YLBYJjxOLk1Ze9W6_NmSgg--~A/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD00MDA7dz00MDA-/http://www.shameddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Funny-Dog-Shaming-Pictures09.jpg.cf.jpg)
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: andyrr on September 08, 2017, 01:24:38 pm
Thanks for replying everyone. 

It's all about what is meant by mindlessness.  I guess in a simple sense, mindless is about the hinderances - while you're restless, doubting, feeling ill-will, or tired - you can't be mindful, although you can regularly bring yourself back to attention.


My question was actually a personal question for me - when I posted I was as mindless as it gets - I drink far, far too much and was very drunk when I posted (I'm not good at keepng to the precepts, or at least one of them).  I have bipolar so I tend to have 3 or 4 months where I am very disciplined, meditate each morning and live a good buddhist lifestyle......and then I have 3 or 4 months where I stop meditation, drink too much and am generally not very close to the path (I'm not good at the middle way either).

Considering I was drunk, it was a very good question....I still tend to believe that mindlessness will always exist, until every being is enlightened.  There's that moment you bring yourself back to being aware, focused - and without being distracted in some form, how do you bring yourself back ?
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on September 08, 2017, 05:22:10 pm
Adhipateyya Sutta: Governing Principles (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.040.than_en.html), backwards (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/ptf/dhamma/adinava/index_en.html)... Appamāda - What is it? How to practise it? Benefits? (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,8179.msg12958.html#msg12958)
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 09, 2017, 01:55:56 am
There's that moment you bring yourself back to being aware, focused - and without being distracted in some form, how do you bring yourself back ?

I would recommend re-establishing mindfulness of the body.  A lot of people use the breath, though I normally bodily sensation, eg the feeling of pressure due to my body's weight ( sitting or standing ), or the feeling of the wind on my face, or whatever.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on September 09, 2017, 02:56:11 am
Like everything, thinking/things (also to do something, or to hold on) need causes. Doing the Dhamma, needs Dukkha as prerequisite for Saddha, when faith is developed, dukkha and theposdibility to end it, seen, already knowing it, by seeing, or remembering both, then there is cause for practicing. When not seeing or remembering, when not forced by pain, or remembering old age, sickness and death, one becomes a drunkward, indoxicated by youth, health and live. If having a teacher (conductive dukkha), reminders, it's easier to fall not from path. That is way the seek and assosiation with admirable friends is called the whole holly life.
If assosiating with fools, when contact with foolish things happens, is not avoided, one has a hard to go on.

Just one day before yesterday, a ex-monk approached my person, full of pain, full totally confused. Remembering what brought him back, letting drinking go totally on year ago. With joy and gratitude he listened, even would not like to go. He will now recover, having reminded, but because he will not be able to let go of enemies in disguise of friends, he will forget to come not at times of no more solutios and pain, but when life is fine and perfect, and one year later will be the same. He does not like to renounce, leave the ordinary householders life. So even thought he is gifted, having found some amount of security, it will be that only then, when his body breaks appart, that he possible gains the stream. That is a waste of a live that could be lived without that much waste and unconductive pain. Why not making first the task and THEN look further? Because dukkha is not seen.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: ground on September 09, 2017, 03:02:49 am
I would recommend re-establishing mindfulness of the body.  ...
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing. That doesn't need to be established at all.  :teehee:
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on September 09, 2017, 04:01:54 am
I would recommend re-establishing mindfulness of the body.  ...
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing. That doesn't need to be established at all.  :teehee:
Such as "I am..", or Burma, or "I am liberated"... "I do/do not believe", "I perceive direct" but "just" as it is "in and of itself" body, feelings, mind , intellects trace...
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 09, 2017, 05:00:47 am
Quote
andyr:  "I think it does.

I think it doesn't. :namaste:
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 10, 2017, 02:15:50 am
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing.

"Everything and nothing"?  What does that mean, practically speaking?  Do you mean thoughts, feelings etc are nothing?  Or what, exactly?
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: ground on September 10, 2017, 02:26:56 am
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing.

"Everything and nothing"?  What does that mean, practically speaking?  Do you mean thoughts, feelings etc are nothing?  Or what, exactly?

'Everything' is affirmation of that which is compounded of many somethings and 'nothing' is the negation of everything.

Natural mind is empty of everything and nothing from the outset.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 10, 2017, 02:37:39 am
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing.

"Everything and nothing"?  What does that mean, practically speaking?  Do you mean thoughts, feelings etc are nothing?  Or what, exactly?

'Everything' is affirmation of that which is compounded of many somethings and 'nothing' is the negation of everything.

Natural mind is empty of everything and nothing from the outset.

Sorry, too cryptic for me.  Do you mean not holding views, not affirming or negating?
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: ground on September 10, 2017, 02:49:48 am
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing.

"Everything and nothing"?  What does that mean, practically speaking?  Do you mean thoughts, feelings etc are nothing?  Or what, exactly?

'Everything' is affirmation of that which is compounded of many somethings and 'nothing' is the negation of everything.

Natural mind is empty of everything and nothing from the outset.

Sorry, too cryptic for me.  Do you mean not holding views, not affirming or negating?

What do you expect? Do you expect me to introduce you to the nature of mind by means of chatter?
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on September 10, 2017, 05:24:45 am
Since this is usuall pursuit introducer are perceived... this reactiin is not possible understandable, if there is not an other, hidden, Grund (ground in Germa is used for reason, cause...). E.g. understandable: matter of mindfullness on sankharas.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Rahul on September 10, 2017, 07:33:09 pm
Since this is usuall pursuit introducer are perceived... this reactiin is not possible understandable, if there is not an other, hidden, Grund (ground in Germa is used for reason, cause...). E.g. understandable: matter of mindfullness on sankharas.

Did anyone notice how much different is Samana Johann's language here? It is much more constructive, coherent, logical, friendly and grammatically better... To the extent that I doubt if this is the old Johann writing or someone else...

But if it is still you old Johann, I welcome this change.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 11, 2017, 01:18:17 am
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing.

"Everything and nothing"?  What does that mean, practically speaking?  Do you mean thoughts, feelings etc are nothing?  Or what, exactly?

'Everything' is affirmation of that which is compounded of many somethings and 'nothing' is the negation of everything.

Natural mind is empty of everything and nothing from the outset.

Sorry, too cryptic for me.  Do you mean not holding views, not affirming or negating?

What do you expect? Do you expect me to introduce you to the nature of mind by means of chatter?

No, just to explain clearly what you mean in an intelligible way - not too much to ask, I hope?  If you have some real insight you should be able to articulate it.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: ground on September 11, 2017, 02:15:17 am
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing.

"Everything and nothing"?  What does that mean, practically speaking?  Do you mean thoughts, feelings etc are nothing?  Or what, exactly?

'Everything' is affirmation of that which is compounded of many somethings and 'nothing' is the negation of everything.

Natural mind is empty of everything and nothing from the outset.

Sorry, too cryptic for me.  Do you mean not holding views, not affirming or negating?

What do you expect? Do you expect me to introduce you to the nature of mind by means of chatter?

No, just to explain clearly what you mean in an intelligible way - not too much to ask, I hope?  If you have some real insight you should be able to articulate it.

I do not share your beliefs so there is no common ground for communication about this topic.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 11, 2017, 08:03:09 am
I would recommend mind's emptiness of everything and nothing.

"Everything and nothing"?  What does that mean, practically speaking?  Do you mean thoughts, feelings etc are nothing?  Or what, exactly?

'Everything' is affirmation of that which is compounded of many somethings and 'nothing' is the negation of everything.

Natural mind is empty of everything and nothing from the outset.

Sorry, too cryptic for me.  Do you mean not holding views, not affirming or negating?

What do you expect? Do you expect me to introduce you to the nature of mind by means of chatter?

No, just to explain clearly what you mean in an intelligible way - not too much to ask, I hope?  If you have some real insight you should be able to articulate it.

I do not share your beliefs so there is no common ground for communication about this topic.

It's nothing to do with beliefs, I was simply asking you to explain yourself more clearly and to be less cryptic.  It is a discussion forum after all. 

And what exactly do you mean by "natural mind"?  A brief definition would be helpful.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: ground on September 11, 2017, 09:45:33 pm
It's nothing to do with beliefs, I was simply asking you to explain yourself more clearly and to be less cryptic.  It is a discussion forum after all. 

And what exactly do you mean by "natural mind"?  A brief definition would be helpful.

you wrote "explain clearly what you mean in an intelligible way" and "If you have some real insight you should be able to articulate it." and these are expressions of belief:
1. Belief that my expression "mind's emptiness of everything and nothing" is an intelligible object.
2. Belief that what I have authentically expressed can be amended to match your conditioned outloook without being changed into something expressing what is not intended to be expressed
3. Belief that 'real insight' exists.
4. Belief that such alleged 'real insight' could be expressed with words to make it intelligible.

It is a discussion forum after all. 
We are discussing, aren't we?

And what exactly do you mean by "natural mind"?  A brief definition would be helpful.
The 'nature of mind' is 'natural mind' is 'original mind'. It is that which is empty of everything and nothing.

However the expression 'mind' is just one of several possiblities to comply with conventional language because linguistically a noun is needed to impute emptiness of everything and nothing to. So actually 'mind' is to be taken as metaphor.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Samana Johann on September 11, 2017, 10:48:20 pm
Tatsächlich? (Actually?)
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 14, 2017, 05:11:57 am
Tatsächlich? (Actually?)

Well, anyway.  I find mindfulness a fascinating hobby because it makes life so much more interesting.  :teehee:
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Solodris on September 14, 2017, 05:53:51 am
Tatsächlich? (Actually?)

Well, anyway.  I find mindfulness a fascinating hobby because it makes life so much more interesting.  :teehee:

Mindfulness seem to alter the attitude towards habitual responses, but since habitual responses sort of goes along with conditionality we find mindlessness in conditions that entertain previous habitual imprints, and we might lose ourselves to them again. Mostly because we are conditioned to hold on to feelings as if they belong with conviction and belief.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Solodris on September 16, 2017, 01:37:35 pm
My impression of "the original mind" gave me an instinct to practice in a more metta-directed orientation.
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 17, 2017, 02:36:46 am
I think it does.

So anyway.  I am still curious about what the OP meant by "mindlessness".
Title: Re: Does mindfulness imply mindlessness
Post by: francis on September 17, 2017, 08:42:55 am
My impression of "the original mind" gave me an instinct to practice in a more metta-directed orientation.

Hi Solodris,

You could practice both.

 :om:
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