Author Topic: Humaness of the buddha after awakening  (Read 4552 times)


Offline humanitas

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2009, 08:25:40 pm »
Greetings,

The Buddha is unquestionably omniscient in all traditions

Not in the Pali Canon.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Thank you I did not know that!!  I had been told this was something all traditions agreed on.  In that case, disregard said statement of mine...
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m0rl0ck

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 09:20:15 pm »
Greetings,


Not in the Pali Canon.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Its great that hes human, otherwise what would be the point to all this.


thornbush

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 02:49:59 am »
Definitely above the average dude....including those in Curtin and Yale huh  ;D

"Are you...a human being?"
"No, brahman, I am not a human being."

When asked, 'Are you a human being?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a human being.'
Then what sort of being are you?"

"Brahman, the fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a...a human being:
Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.

"Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'Awakened.'
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 03:11:21 am by thornbush »

thornbush

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 05:51:29 am »
Quote
Greetings,
Quote
The Buddha is unquestionably omniscient in all traditions

Not in the Pali Canon.

Quote
Thank you I did not know that!!  I had been told this was something all traditions agreed on.  In that case, disregard said statement of mine...


Let's just say that even in Theravada circles, it depends on who is interpreting what is 'Omniscient' and with what context it is used...so I wouldn't dare say that it's a clear cut opinion...there's always the other interpretation...see some samples...
Buddha Gotama, by virtue of his Supreme Omniscience, Sabbata Nuna Nana, was able to relate about the beginnings and the journey of His own ascent to become the Sammasambuddha, the Perfect One. Such events had happened in eras so distant that it is impossible for us to say this much or that much of years, just as it is impossible for us to say how much grains of sands are there in the oceans.  
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/Buddha-lineage.html

1. Bodhisatta
The Fourfold Insight Knowledge of the Path together with Eightfold Noble Path (Magga-nana) with or without accompaniment of Omniscience (Sabbannutanana) is called Enlightenment (Bodhi).
Buddhahood is attainment of Omniscience (Sabbannutta nana ). To attain this Supreme Wisdom the seeker must have a mental make-up in which Wisdom is predominant. The factor of predominant Wisdom means careful consideration and forethought in doing everything physically, verbally or mentally. By so doing, one's wisdom becomes strengthened and mature existence after existence so that in due course one painlessly attains Omniscience which is far superior to all kinds of wisdom. Just as money is gained in the world by means of monetary investment, even so Omniscience is gained by means of intellectual investment.

http://thebuddhisttemple.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=72

2. The Attribute of Sammasambuddha
A Sammasambuddha is a Perfectly Self-enlightened One, who, being endowed with Sabbannuta Nana, knows all the dhammas.
The term 'Sabbannu' is a combination of two words, 'Sabba' and 'nu'. 'Sabba' means all, i.e. all the dhammas and 'nu' means knowing or understanding, i.e, knowing or understanding thoroughly.
This Pali word 'sabbannu' was, in fact, widely used even before the time of the Buddha. In those days, many people practised in their own way and established different creeds or sects of their own and claimed themselves to be 'sabbannus', the omniscient ones.

These 'sabbannus' and experts of various creeds asked the Buddha many questions; to each of their questions, the Buddha was able to give a comprehensive answer without fail. The Buddha knew much more than what those people knew and also everything that should be known in this world. Besides these people there were monarchs from the human world, monarchs from the deva world, monarchs from the brahma world, bhikkhus, brahmins, rich householders, merchants, field labourers, the rich as well as the poor, who came to pay obeisance to the Buddha, who asked him many questions and put up many problems. To all their questions and problems the Buddha gave satisfactory answers and solutions.

Therefore, they all fervidly acclaimed him "one who knows all the dhammas, one whose knowledge of the dhamma is absolute. He was widely praised and his attribute of "Sammasambuddha", one who knows all there is to be known, both mundane and supramundane, became well known throughout the world.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/khtut01.htm

{ED note: Due to a strange posting problem, the intended entire section refuses to appear as intended in actual view although it appears in preview mode. Pls return to weblink given to read from there. Apologies extended here for inconvenience.}
According to some passages of the Buddha...It is noteworthy that this method of teaching has been taken to prove the omniscience (sabbaññū) of the Buddha.[9]
{[9] For further information, see Prof. Tilak Kariyawasam’s article: The Development of the Concept of Omniscience. Assays in Honour of Ananda W.P. Guruge, Colombo 1990. This idea was expressed by him also in his (unpublished) PhD Thesis, Lancaster University, (England 1973)}

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/atta/ad04.htm

Another perspective: Mr-Know-It-All
For addendum reading: The Qualities of a Buddha's Omniscient Deep Awareness

I find this part interesting...
"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.031.than.html

On another note, I have never regarded the word 'Omniscience', which is often used and carries the theistic baggage connotations, to be used in the Buddhist context, for if one compares what the Buddha is and the deva realm with all of its Maras and Brahmas up until the Formless Realms, none is His equal to begin with...
"...and one like me can't be found.
In the world with its devas,
I have no counterpart."

Ariyapariyesana Sutta

""There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: Indeed, the Blessed One is...the Teacher of divine & human beings..."      
Mahanama Sutta
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:01:43 pm by thornbush »

Offline humanitas

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2009, 10:57:17 am »
I still fail to see a reason for banning based solely on asking a question.  I don't get it...
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Offline Monkey Mind

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2009, 11:56:28 am »
Leo posted a comment on BC about the contraversial (read ban-able) topics. He claimed that the infighting that resulted from discussion of those topics was horrific, and sometimes there were actual legal challenges that arose to material that became available in the forum. I am not saying that I endorse the strange moderator behaviors at ES, just suggesting the thing was complicated.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 11:58:43 am by Monkey Mind »

Hungry Ghost

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 11:58:32 am »
Seeing as how there are differences on this matter across traditions, I'll just guess that his Body-mind underwent the full range of human sensations, yet there was nothing against which these sensations struck.

Offline humanitas

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2009, 12:31:57 pm »
Leo posted a comment on BC about the contraversial (read ban-able) topics. He claimed that the infighting that resulted from discussion of those topics was horrific, and sometimes there were actual legal challenges that arose to material that became available in the forum. I am not saying that I endorse the strange moderator behaviors at ES, just suggesting the thing was complicated.

Wow, I didn't realize we had Buddhist zealots.  Wow.  I'll have to keep an eye open for this kind of outcome.
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thornbush

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 06:04:36 pm »
Quote
I still fail to see a reason for banning based solely on asking a question.  I don't get it...
Leo posted a comment on BC about the contraversial (read ban-able) topics. He claimed that the infighting that resulted from discussion of those topics was horrific, and sometimes there were actual legal challenges that arose to material that became available in the forum. I am not saying that I endorse the strange moderator behaviors at ES, just suggesting the thing was complicated.
Wow, I didn't realize we had Buddhist zealots.  Wow.  I'll have to keep an eye open for this kind of outcome.
Topic relevance ??? ;D

Offline humanitas

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2009, 06:37:46 pm »
Quote
I still fail to see a reason for banning based solely on asking a question.  I don't get it...
Leo posted a comment on BC about the contraversial (read ban-able) topics. He claimed that the infighting that resulted from discussion of those topics was horrific, and sometimes there were actual legal challenges that arose to material that became available in the forum. I am not saying that I endorse the strange moderator behaviors at ES, just suggesting the thing was complicated.
Wow, I didn't realize we had Buddhist zealots.  Wow.  I'll have to keep an eye open for this kind of outcome.
Topic relevance ??? ;D

Apologies.

Moderator's Relevance: It might be useful to know that this kind of questioning is "off-limits" somewhere else and members get banned for discussion.  Is it some kind of Buddhist blasphemy to question the how the humanity of the Buddha manifested...?  We can all agree he was a man till he awakened.  And then he was a man + bodhi.  I would think it is perfectly natural to wonder if his stomach ever got upset or not.   

Let's get back to the topic.   :namaste:
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thornbush

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 07:05:21 pm »
Quote
Quote
Quote
I still fail to see a reason for banning based solely on asking a question.  I don't get it...
Leo posted a comment on BC about the contraversial (read ban-able) topics. He claimed that the infighting that resulted from discussion of those topics was horrific, and sometimes there were actual legal challenges that arose to material that became available in the forum. I am not saying that I endorse the strange moderator behaviors at ES, just suggesting the thing was complicated.
Wow, I didn't realize we had Buddhist zealots.  Wow.  I'll have to keep an eye open for this kind of outcome.
Topic relevance ??? ;D

Apologies.

Moderator's Relevance: It might be useful to know that this kind of questioning is "off-limits" somewhere else and members get banned for discussion.  Is it some kind of Buddhist blasphemy to question the how the humanity of the Buddha manifested...?  We can all agree he was a man till he awakened.  And then he was a man + bodhi.  I would think it is perfectly natural to wonder if his stomach ever got upset or not.  

Let's get back to the topic.   :namaste:
I suppose it depends on what Forum it is on, who are running the show and what kind of discussions are 'allowable' huh?
Again, let me extend my appreciation to Wonky and Team for being so magnanimous and open thus far.
It's one of those sites that has a human face and feature to it where we can discuss if Our Lord's back was aching or having a stomachache without the threat of Avici looming over our heads...  :) ;D    
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 07:07:37 pm by thornbush »

Offline Monkey Mind

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 07:22:02 pm »
Greetings,

The Buddha is unquestionably omniscient in all traditions

Not in the Pali Canon.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Retro, I was hoping you would say more about this. IMHO (and largely uneducated as it is...), the Pali Cannon consists of accounts of what other people saw Buddha do or heard him say, and any speculations of Buddha's intention are typically absent (sometimes frustratingly so). Some passages seem to allude to his omniscience, and some seem to reference his more human nature [is "human" the right term to use to connote the opposite of omniscient?].

Offline retrofuturist

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Re: Humaness of the buddha after awakening
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 08:52:28 pm »
Greetings Monkeymind,

In the Pali Canon there are many instances of the Buddha asking a question that he would not have needed to ask if he were omniscient (and that's putting aside the questions asked in the interests of creating a teaching opportunity). There are also instances where he clearly would not have acted in the way he did, if he had known what he would later come to know. Apologies I don't have examples off the top of my head, but I can't think of what keywords I would use to search for such examples. I can't find it just now, but there's also a sutta where the Buddha gives meditation instructions to a group of bhikkhus (on the repulsiveness of the body?) and shortly after, they all commit suicide. Had the Buddha known his teaching would not be understood correctly, he clearly would not have issued such instructions.

The classical Theravada perspective (note, not synonymous with the Pali Canon), as elaborated on in the traditional Pali commentaries, takes his alleged omniscience to consist of something to the effect that the Buddha could know whatever he put his mind to. Perhaps this way the only way they could escalate the perception of the Buddha's manskills without finding themselves contradicting the suttas.

Metta,
Retro. :)

 


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