Author Topic: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana  (Read 181 times)

Offline CedarTree

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Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« on: August 11, 2017, 05:10:39 pm »
Imagine I am sitting at Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America, or Wat Pah Nanachat (Ajahn Chah Monastery) in Thailand, or Panditãrãma (Sayadaw U Pandita-Mahasi Sayadaw Center) in Burma, or at some 3-year silent retreat in the tradition of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

A lot drops off (Anatta), Nonduality is experienced, with wisdom one awakens (Nirvana).

There is a dynamic with multiplicity (Individuals), Emptiness, Awareness, Etc.

How is awakening related to the individual?

This is to be open to all traditions and view points. There may be members with not as much formal knowledge as others that yet have diamond tidbits of wisdom.

Let us be encouraging and delve into what each other presents with a lot of respect so this discussion can draw out important understandings and content.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 05:31:40 pm »
Nyom,

It's good to start with the first step, generosity. Are you able to give even outwardy things, or do you think it's better to save that to finance another "anatta" trip to experiance non-duality?

That's not an offence but something one should consider honest to know where he/she actually stands and if it is the right time and condition to grasp after the cream and to wake up, awake a little from a trip because previous gained merits are anicca as well.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:38:25 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 10:01:32 pm »
Imagine I am sitting ...

How is awakening related to the individual?

...

Let us be encouraging and delve into what each other presents with a lot of respect so this discussion can draw out important understandings and content.

And maybe this will result in a world record of imaginations ready to be recorded in the Guinness book of world records.

Offline CedarTree

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 10:16:25 pm »
Nyom,

It's good to start with the first step, generosity. Are you able to give even outwardy things, or do you think it's better to save that to finance another "anatta" trip to experiance non-duality?

That's not an offence but something one should consider honest to know where he/she actually stands and if it is the right time and condition to grasp after the cream and to wake up, awake a little from a trip because previous gained merits are anicca as well.


No offense taken that is some great wisdom :)

Offline CedarTree

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 10:17:02 pm »
Imagine I am sitting ...

How is awakening related to the individual?

...

Let us be encouraging and delve into what each other presents with a lot of respect so this discussion can draw out important understandings and content.

And maybe this will result in a world record of imaginations ready to be recorded in the Guinness book of world records.

Could very well be but this is a discussion forum ;)

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 10:38:15 pm »
Imagine I am sitting ...

How is awakening related to the individual?

...

Let us be encouraging and delve into what each other presents with a lot of respect so this discussion can draw out important understandings and content.

And maybe this will result in a world record of imaginations ready to be recorded in the Guinness book of world records.

Could very well be but this is a discussion forum ;)

Yeah, lots of people on this forum seem to not really grasp the concept that forums are for discussions and posting stuff that is seen by others.

There are only a few active and repeated posters on this website, actually you might quite like them because they are sympathizers of a very strict sort of fundamentalist atheistic Westernized Secular Buddhism that gets support from some Theravada seeming monks from the jungles of South-East Asia these days.

They are VissudhiRaptor, francis, Rahul, and ground also has the secular tendencies but I think might disregard meditation whereas the others may place more emphasis on that possibly, especially francis who is an expert at the sort of meditation practiced by this modern type of Buddhist fundamentalist. He would encourage you to get a "face to face teacher", but surely has a great deal of wisdom to share, another good one is Ron though and for a more traditional mixture you might like to talk to Samana Johann who is currently out there and "doing it" for real as far as I'm aware, living in the monk kind of fashion to a great degree.

The other posters here are a little more Mahayana tolerant, and they are Spiny Norman, IdleChater, and some others.

meez is a moderator and has a softer touch than former mods according to stories I've heard.

I am The Artis Magistra, and I've only been here a few days but have already made a name for myself as a nuisance and get regularly ridiculed, mostly by the people who don't like what I write (the extremist, militant Atheist secular Buddhist types with Theravada sympathies or Pali Canon Bible bashing tendencies).

The sort of Buddhism I promote on this website is meant to be a contrast to the very strict secular Western Atheist style, and is based more around things coming out from North Western India (Now Pakistan) that went to China during the Tang Dynasty for example and then to Japan during the Heian period.

There is also a mostly quiet but kind of unpleasant seeming member called pixie who may be a female and had an interest in Tibetan Buddhism but still seems to not like anything I write.

I was ridiculed and suppressed and kicked off of a Mahayana website called Dharma Wheel because they said I had no right to speak about anything or share ideas because I am not some big fancy guru.

Welcome to the Buddhist community, where you will meet some of the most unpleasant people on the internet!

So explore the website, the old articles, and the current dominant voices on the website.

I'm interested in hearing what sorts of things attract you to whatever you are interested in and seeing how you progress and what you start to put into practice or believe in.

So on a spectrum of extreme mystic and theistic Buddhism to extreme "matter-of-fact" mundane and atheistic Buddhism:

The Artis Magistra is on the extreme end on one side and maybe ground is on the other extreme end on the other side along with Rahul, VissudhiRaptor, and probably francis as well though he doesn't seem to ever want to come to terms with it or admit to it.

I'd like you to take a look at my writing if you have a chance, which can also be done by clicking my username and seeing all my posts, they are in a reverse chronological order, and some of them might seem just irritable because of people like francis constantly coming around taking swipes or being mean to me, but I'd like to know what you think of the ideas presented when read carefully, if its not at all to your taste, then the mystic Buddhism is probably not to your preference at all and you can look more into the work of other posters here who also don't like that sort of thing, or you'll find a decent middle ground with the highly educated Spiny Norman and IdleChater who are not extremists on either end as far as I'm aware.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 04:32:12 am »
How is awakening related to the individual?

I'm not sure what question you're asking.  Are you asking whether somebody who enlightened retains a "personality"?

Offline CedarTree

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 09:26:08 am »
How is awakening related to the individual?

I'm not sure what question you're asking.  Are you asking whether somebody who enlightened retains a "personality"?

I think my question isn't so direct.  Maybe an abstract question in some senses lol

Another poster from a different forum said:

Quote
Awakening is clearly something that happens to a living being, altering their perspective or revealing fundamental truths, however you wish to express it, and, while those fundamental truths might be expressed in ways that involve words like "empty of a self", still, it is the sensations that previously made up both self and other that are revealed in some very vivid, clear, immediate, transformative way.

Thus, when they awaken, from their vantage pointless vantage point, the whole field of their unique experience is awakened, but, as basically everyone who has awakened and asked other people if their awakening suddenly awakened everyone else, the answer is "no".

So, while it can't really quite be called an "individual thing", still, it clearly happens to an individual, or a unique sense field, or however you wish to put it. When the Buddha awakened, for example, he still clearly noticed that his awakening didn't awaken everyone, as everyone else also noticed.

I am curious to know the background to your question and what practical value you hope the discussion will have for yourself as well as others. Thoughts?

I think sometimes with a heavy Anatta focus we jump over some of the depth and dynamics of "Individualism" and "Specificity" and what they really mean/are.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 05:30:48 pm »
Imagine I am sitting at Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in America, or Wat Pah Nanachat (Ajahn Chah Monastery) in Thailand, or Panditãrãma (Sayadaw U Pandita-Mahasi Sayadaw Center) in Burma, or at some 3-year silent retreat in the tradition of Chögyal Namkhai Norbu or Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

A lot drops off (Anatta), Nonduality is experienced, with wisdom one awakens (Nirvana).

There is a dynamic with multiplicity (Individuals), Emptiness, Awareness, Etc.

How is awakening related to the individual?

This is to be open to all traditions and view points. There may be members with not as much formal knowledge as others that yet have diamond tidbits of wisdom.

Let us be encouraging and delve into what each other presents with a lot of respect so this discussion can draw out important understandings and content.


http://www.iep.utm.edu/pudgalav/

Offline Solodris

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 04:46:46 pm »
How is awakening related to the individual?

I'm not sure what question you're asking.  Are you asking whether somebody who enlightened retains a "personality"?

That's an interesting question. What does it mean to have a personality when one is merged with the ocean of others?

I suppose awakening starts when one sees oneself in others?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 07:03:08 pm by Solodris »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 04:57:18 pm »
What does it mean to have a personality when one is merged with the ocean of others?

I suppose awakening starts when one sees oneself in others?


We Are Not One

Quote
...The   other   reason   is   that   Ajaan   Suwat   indirectly addressed   an   idea   often,   but wrongly, attributed   to   the Buddha:   that   we   are   all   One,   and   that   our   organic Oneness   is something   to   celebrate.   If   we   really   were   One,   wouldn’t our stomachs   interconnect   so that   the   nourishment   of   one   person nourished everyone   else?   As   it   is,   my   act   of   feeding can   often deprive   someone   else   of food.   My   need   to   keep   feeding requires   that   other living   beings   keep   working hard   to   produce food.   In   many   cases,   when   one   being   feeds, others   die   in the process.   Oneness,   for   most   beings,   means   not   sharing   a stomach but winding up   in   someone   else’s   stomach   and   being absorbed   into   that   someone   else’s bloodstream.   Hardly   cause for   celebration.

The   Buddha   himself   never   taught   that   we   are   all   One.   A brahman   once asked   him,   “Is everything   a   Oneness?   Is everything   a   Plurality?”   The   Buddha replied   that   both   views are extremes   to   be   avoided   (SN 12:48).   He   didn’t explain   to   the brahman   why   we should   avoid   the   extreme   view   that   all   is Oneness.   But   three   other   passages   in   the   Pali Canon suggest   the   reasons   for   his position.

In   AN 10:29,   he   says   that   the   highest   non-dual   state   a   meditator   can   master is   to experience   consciousness   as   an   unlimited,   non-dual   totality.   Everything seems   One with   your   awareness   in   that   experience,   yet   even   in   that   state   there is   still   change   and inconstancy.   In   other   words,   it   doesn’t   end   suffering.   Like everything   else   conditioned and   fabricated,   it   has   to   be   viewed   with   dispassion and,   ultimately,   abandoned.

In   SN 35:80,   the   Buddha   states   that   in   order   to   relinquish   ignorance   and give   rise   to clear   knowing,   one   has   to   see   all   things—all   the   senses   and   their objects--as   something other   or   separate;   as   not-self.   To   see   all   things   as   One would   thus   block   the   knowledge leading   to   awakening.

And   in   MN 22,   he   singles   out   the   view   that   the   self   is   identical   with   the cosmos   as particularly   foolish.   If   the   cosmos   is   your   true   self,   he   reasoned,   then the   workings   of the   cosmos   would   be   yours   to   control.   But   how   much   control do   you   have   over   your immediate   surroundings,   let   alone   the   whole   cosmos? As   Ajaan   Lee   once   said,   “Try cutting   down   your   neighbor’s   tree   and   see whether   there’s   going   to   be   trouble.”...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 05:16:58 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline Solodris

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 06:03:35 pm »
I'll be quiet.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 06:32:10 pm by Solodris, Reason: Speech Addiction »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 07:26:55 pm »
I'll be quiet.

Quite is just good if there is clearency. Till then its much better to ask, discuss and give one views a challenge to grow, Nyom Solodris.
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