Author Topic: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?  (Read 434 times)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« on: October 06, 2017, 01:31:31 am »
What do you think?

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2017, 08:57:28 am »

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2017, 05:14:09 pm »
What do you think?

I think not.  A "different state of mind" is still a "state" of "mind" and this is antithetical to what I've been taught about Nirvana.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2017, 06:48:59 pm »
Perhaps other ways of phrasing similar related questions would be to ask, 'Is it possible to have any experience of any type and of any description which does not involve a functioning brain?'

Is it possible to have a state of awareness, of whatever type or description, which is not also a 'state of mind' which is dependent upon a functioning brain?

Offline ground

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2017, 10:17:22 pm »
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Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?

'It' isn't really an 'it' due to being a non-state. However a state of mind different from the ordinary is required for the cessation of all  states of mind.  :fu:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2017, 02:02:53 am »
Nibbana is not a nama dhamma (mental thing) therefore it is not a state of mind but a state (dhamma; ṭhānaṃ) the mind can be aware of as a sense object (ayatana).

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There is, bhikkhus, that base (ayatana) where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering. Ud 8.1

'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state (ṭhānaṃ), too, is hard to see: the calming of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana. MN 26

ṭhāna

standing; the act of standing, being fixed or stationary; continuance. a place; a locality; a spot; a site; a location; a suitable place; a worthy object. region, sphere; metaphysical or spiritual state. situation; station; office; position. position; state. occasion; case, occurrence; matter. quality; attribute, characteristic. ground, basis; reason, cause. stance; standpoint; condition.

Offline ground

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 04:23:47 am »
Nibbana is not a nama dhamma (mental thing) therefore it is not a state of mind but a state (dhamma; ṭhānaṃ) the mind can be aware of as a sense object (ayatana).
'Object' is not appropriate. Better: a negative phenomenon because it is a mere quality but not a determinate object. 'negative' refers to absence, absence of what has ceased.


Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2017, 06:55:03 pm »
If nirvana is contingent on the mind would it not die with the body?

As best I can discern, everything/anything perceivable (based on any perception) is not nirvana. A state outside the closed circle of life and death, within noumenon and outside phenomenon. I think It is at a certain point possible to be as you are without Phenomenon playing a part. So I would have to say that it is not a state of mind because those arise, but instead the state of being present without arising which encompasses too many things to even try and express because of interdependence. Though this is a matter of faith on my part as I have no functional proof to offer beyond this and it is the result of pondering this question based on the work of others.   

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2017, 07:21:18 pm »
If nirvana is contingent on the mind would it not die with the body?

Yes it would.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2017, 11:34:52 am »
'Object' is not appropriate. Better: a negative phenomenon because it is a mere quality but not a determinate object. 'negative' refers to absence, absence of what has ceased.

Nibbana is an ayatana, which is translated as sense object. Regardless of what a proper translation is, Nibbana is an ayatana, i.e., something known or experienced by the mind.

Any view contrary to this falls outside of the teachings but just a personal ( :lmfao:) view.  :teehee:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2017, 11:38:39 am »
If nirvana is contingent on the mind would it not die with the body?

It is not contingent on the mind. The mind only 'knows' Nibbana rather than 'creates' Nibbana. When this generation of people pass away, Nibbana will remain for the next generation to find.

As best I can discern, everything/anything perceivable (based on any perception) is not nirvana.

If that is so, how can Nirvana ever be known? How can the idea of 'Nirvana' even exist? Why would the Buddha have referred to 'Nirvana' if his mind never perceived it?

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2017, 12:33:08 pm »
If nirvana is contingent on the mind would it not die with the body?

It is not contingent on the mind. The mind only 'knows' Nibbana rather than 'creates' Nibbana. When this generation of people pass away, Nibbana will remain for the next generation to find.

As best I can discern, everything/anything perceivable (based on any perception) is not nirvana.

If that is so, how can Nirvana ever be known? How can the idea of 'Nirvana' even exist? Why would the Buddha have referred to 'Nirvana' if his mind never perceived it?

The Buddha attained supreme enlightenment, his capacity is far beyond my ability to speak on, for my part I am not sure he transferred the actual meaning so much as the way to find the meaning. Which cannot be said in human subjective terms but is a stopping of subjective nature and realization of being leading to an understanding not stored or experienced in the mind as a perception but found by the soul through the vehicle of the path he taught.

Perceiving a tree does not make it a tree. It's nature is separate from perception, it is not based on perception, if no one perceived it, it would still "be" because it is. The tree is perceivable in the ways that one perceives a tree, but the perception does not create it, it has a nature separate from all perception that is it's true nature. With this it then suddenly becomes impossible to say more about this nature because it is void of characteristics which can be spoken in any form, but it is clear that the tree is not contingent on perception. If the tree was a teaching and lead to a place, one might be able to describe the tree to others in subjective terms, in the knowledge that what is required which is not the tree could be attained by the vehicle of the description and the pondering of the tree. 


Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2017, 12:33:42 pm »
Nibbana is an ayatana

I've never heard or read of Nirvana  being a ayatna.  Explain this in greater depth?

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2017, 07:03:56 am »
The logical way I see to approach this concept is pretty much the same way the old joke about "How a sculptor creates an elephant from a block of marble." is prescribed:  " 

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(paraphrasing) "Get yourself a block of marble, and chip away everything that does not look like an elephant!"   "What you are left with is a sculpture of an elephant."


This a similar approach as what Buddha describes in  AN 3.32: 

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"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."


So, take away resolutions of fabrication, relinquish acquisitions, end craving, end passion; then Nibbana arises.

In Dhp 202-205: 

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There's no fire like passion,
no loss like anger,
no pain like the aggregates,
no ease other than peace.

Hunger: the foremost illness.
Fabrications: the foremost pain.
For one knowing this truth
as it actually is,
   Unbinding
is the foremost ease.

Freedom from illness: the foremost good fortune.
Contentment: the foremost wealth.
Trust: the foremost kinship.
Unbinding: the foremost ease.


Therefore unbinding arises , along with contentment, good health, good fortune, freedom from pain and hunger,good fortune  all as a result of the abandonment of anger, when one turns one's back on the aggregates and fabrications.

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Hunger: the foremost illness.
Fabrications: the foremost pain.


In — Dhp 23:

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The enlightened, constantly
   absorbed in jhana,
   persevering,
   firm in their effort:
they touch Unbinding,
the unexcelled safety
   from bondage.


So, that which we must chip away to leave only nibbana

...and in terms of what it (nibbana) is not

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1

Therefore, I must conclude,  nibbana is neither derived, nor as a result of activities of mind. 

It is a result of our skillfulness of chipping away at that which binds us to this samsaric realm:

perception & feeling, non-perception,
mental fermentations ,
consciousness, [perceiving,] ,
perceptions of [physical] form,
pleasure & stress ,  & rapture,
directed thought, & evaluation,
affliction as stress,
all forms of sensuality,
pain

reference:  Nibbana Sutta    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html

Even pleasure:

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When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... smells cognizable via the nose... tastes cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strings of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure.




What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Is Nirvana just a different state of mind?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2017, 07:13:55 am »
 :brick:     :jinsyx:   :om:

 


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