Author Topic: Lineage  (Read 3997 times)

Offline santamonicacj

  • Member
  • Posts: 2268
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2010, 12:54:26 pm »
It depends upon the tradition whether it is Vinaya or non-Vinaya based.
Thanks for your reply. Now my next question is: What is non-Vinaya based ordination?

Thanks again in advance.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

  • Member
  • Posts: 4536
  • May all beings live rightly and harmoniously.
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2010, 03:01:45 pm »
Feel free to invite Bhikku Samahita, I enjoyed reading his posts at BC!

I have written to Bhikkhu Samahita and now have his permission to post his daily Dhamma Lessons from "What The Buddha Said in Plain English."  However he has requested that they be posted exactly as they have been written.  His lessons include images and often have to be corrected for grammarical and spelling errors, which I have agreed to do.  I am not certain that I can always download the images, however.

So, we are working on it.

On e-Sangha we created a locked thread for his work, but without the images.  So, I am working on it.   :juggle:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2010, 03:04:00 pm »
Feel free to invite Bhikku Samahita, I enjoyed reading his posts at BC!

I have written to Bhikkhu Samahita and now have his permission to post his daily Dhamma Lessons from "What The Buddha Said in Plain English."  However he has requested that they be posted exactly as they have been written.  His lessons include images and often have to be corrected for grammarical and spelling errors, which I have agreed to do.  I am not certain that I can always download the images, however.

So, we are working on it.

On e-Sangha we created a locked thread for his work, but without the images.  So, I am working on it.   :juggle:

Great news, thank you for taking the lead on that project.
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline Shi Hong Yang

  • Peace inside ripples out
  • Member
  • Posts: 180
  • Vinaya Bhikshuni translator of Mahayana Tripitaka
    • View Profile
    • Sangha Walks
Re: Lineage
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2010, 03:37:10 pm »
It depends upon the tradition whether it is Vinaya or non-Vinaya based.
Thanks for your reply. Now my next question is: What is non-Vinaya based ordination?

Thanks again in advance.

An example would be Japanese Buddhism which has lineages but is not based upon Vinaya since the Japanese Emperor forbid the bhikshu/bhikshuni ordination and since that time only lineages have been based upon the bodhisattva vows; very little has changed since then.  The few bhikshus they have are not well-supported or respected by the Japanese people themselves as they prefer the system as it is.  They are priests married or celibate and the males are allowed to marry females cannot.



American Japanese Buddhists have further deviated in new forms.  They have married priests of both genders.  Many of the celibate monastics have gone on to higher ordination in the Vinaya tradition and it is accepted here in the USA and elsewhere.




Self-ordination is not Vinaya.  It is not possible to self-ordain in Buddhism.  This is a sign of fakery no matter what tradition the fake is claiming to be from in Buddhism.
Chinese Buddhism is the oldest form of Buddhism in the USA, in 2013 it is 161 years old.  The first Buddhist temples were built in California in 1952 & 1854. Second oldest is Korean in 1900 and Japanese in 1902 both in Hawaii.

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2010, 03:44:09 pm »
Dear Venerable,

thank you for that information!!

So does that mean that all ordinations across all traditions of Buddhism are Vinaya in order to be considered "monastic"... and is celibacy ALWAYS a part of monastic life?  Are other ordinations (I've seen Buddhist "nuns" in some zen traditions who aren't celibate who claim to have been ordained by their teacher... this had me quite confused...) where they use the word "nun" or "monk" but aren't actually ordained in the Vinaya?
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline Monkey Mind

  • Member
  • Posts: 2796
    • View Profile
    • My Buddhism Biography
Re: Lineage
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2010, 08:00:53 pm »
This page was a big help in my understanding of Vinaya:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/khantipalo/wheel130.html

Monastics under Vinaya are always celibate, and sexual intercourse is one of a few things that will result in a monk/ nun being directed to disrobe. [No pun intended.]

In some traditions, lay people are able to accept 10 precepts, which is a simulation of monastic life for laity. Often potential monks or nuns have to be 10 preceptors first before they can take on the monastic Vinaya.

In some traditions, especially here in the West, lay people can "ordain" as lay ministers. They are viewed as leaders in the Sangha, but are not monastic and do not have to be celibate. They have the ability to officiate marriages.

Offline santamonicacj

  • Member
  • Posts: 2268
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2010, 08:53:37 pm »
Self-ordination is not Vinaya.  It is not possible to self-ordain in Buddhism.  This is a sign of fakery no matter what tradition the fake is claiming to be from in Buddhism.
An extremely important point, and pertinent to the original question that started this thread regarding lineage.

On another note, is the term 'Vinaya' thought to mean the Patimokkha vows only, or are the Bodhisattva and tantric vows also called Vinaya (assuming you practice a tradition that ultilizes these)? I went toe-to-toe with Henry over at e-sangha about this some months ago. I said 'yes' and he said 'no'. Anybody know for sure?
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Shi Hong Yang

  • Peace inside ripples out
  • Member
  • Posts: 180
  • Vinaya Bhikshuni translator of Mahayana Tripitaka
    • View Profile
    • Sangha Walks
Re: Lineage
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2010, 09:27:50 pm »
First of all, Buddhist nuns are celibate across all Buddhist traditions.  Monastic life demands this.  Women shaving their heads and claiming to be nuns while engaging in sex are not nuns; if in America they may be priests under a new form of Japanese Buddhism but not Vinaya and cannot be so.

Regarding Bodhisattva vows source material for this would be required; I didn't see the discussion with Henry to comment on that. 

Tantric is lineage based within the Tibetan Buddhist system for the Vinaya question refer to them.  I do believe they have it initiation and within Tibetan Buddhism they have their own ordination by lineages.

Bodhisattva vows are Mahayana tradition and I do not have the Taisho number for it yet.  However the Brahma Net Sutra is the source sutra and readily available in many of the links in the Library section.  In Mahayana Buddhist the Dharmagupta ordination is a Triple Platform ordination and it includes the Bodhisattva Precepts Ordination.  It is part of our full ordination.  History of it I do not have on hand.
Chinese Buddhism is the oldest form of Buddhism in the USA, in 2013 it is 161 years old.  The first Buddhist temples were built in California in 1952 & 1854. Second oldest is Korean in 1900 and Japanese in 1902 both in Hawaii.

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2010, 10:07:32 pm »
Quote
Tantric is lineage based within the Tibetan Buddhist system for the Vinaya question refer to them.  I do believe they have it initiation and within Tibetan Buddhism they have their own ordination by lineages.

One of my teachers told me that the Tibetan lineage for nuns is gone and that all the new Tibetan Buddhist nuns are actually orphaned in this way, so for example Pema Chodron is a "novice" even though she's been a nun for a really long time.  Maybe it's because according to tradition cannot "graduate" without her monastic lineage graduating her....?

Help me out with this one ye more advanced students in Tibetan lineages...  :headbow:
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline santamonicacj

  • Member
  • Posts: 2268
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2010, 10:48:45 pm »
One of my teachers told me that the Tibetan lineage for nuns is gone and that all the new Tibetan Buddhist nuns are actually orphaned in this way, so for example Pema Chodron is a "novice" even though she's been a nun for a really long time.  Maybe it's because according to tradition cannot "graduate" without her monastic lineage graduating her....?

Help me out with this one ye more advanced students in Tibetan lineages...  :headbow:
I think I've got this one:

Novice ordination and full ordination are two different things, both for monks and nuns. Full ordination contains all the vows of the novice plus many more. It is not as if there is a time frame when one graduates from novice to fully ordained, it is when you receive the additional vows.

The lineage of fully ordained nun's vows never made it to Tibet. So the only vows available to Tibetan women were the novice vows. Today women have gone (to the Theravadans?) and received the full ordination and are introducing it into the Tibetan traditions. So as far as Pema Chodren goes she now has the full ordination available to her should she so desire. Whether she has chosen to do so I have no idea. :namaste:
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Monkey Mind

  • Member
  • Posts: 2796
    • View Profile
    • My Buddhism Biography
Re: Lineage
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2010, 08:05:12 am »
I noticed that she gies by a new title now. Does that mean she achieved the higher ordination?

Offline humanitas

  • buddha's om-girl
  • Member
  • Posts: 2326
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2010, 09:28:42 am »
What's the new title?  :anjali:
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline Karma Sonam

  • Member
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2010, 10:10:14 am »
Ok, now I'm confused.  Does this mean nuns can't make it to Lama?  There are female Lamas in the Kagyu tradition  :-O
Om Tare Tutare Ture Soha

Don't forget to stop and smell the daisies.

and then the monkey pushed the button

Offline santamonicacj

  • Member
  • Posts: 2268
    • View Profile
Re: Lineage
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2010, 12:34:48 pm »
Ok, now I'm confused.  Does this mean nuns can't make it to Lama?  There are female Lamas in the Kagyu tradition  :-O
One does not need to be either a monk or a nun in order to become a lama. Most of the lamas in the Nyingma tradition, for example, are neither monks or nuns.

Although I wouldn't recommend it, technically it is possible to become a monk or nun immediately after you do the Taking Refuge ceremony. It is a set of vows you take. There is no implication of having developed spiritually, and it is not a prerequisite for anything else. The Gelug tradition stresses it most, the Nyingma the least.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal