Author Topic: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant  (Read 881 times)

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« on: July 15, 2017, 11:39:26 am »
By Modern Buddhism I mean this new thing where one imagines everything is baseless and worthless except the most modern psychological scientific interpretation of extremely ancient writings, having the odd faith that the Buddha was somehow a modern scientist who studied at MIT.

Going further, all the years of color and light and the beautiful ways in which the Dharma was brought to numerous people are, according to the Modern Buddhist as being described here, Pagan Folly, and instead there were supposedly these super scientists telling people that all their ideas are just plainly stupid. Of course back then, those wonderful vampires teaching the ultimate suck, were failures, since the pagan fools went ahead making their blasphemous artworks and teaching the Dharma using all sorts of naughty methods, like jovial conversations and being friendly, telling stories, and not out of their great wisdom or their hidden ability to copy paste, jam the Pali Canon down every throat they could.

So maybe its time for me to be racist. Oh actually, I will not be racist because I will phrase it in a question form. Do white people ruin everything? I will refrain from answering (with an affirmative yes, because look).

But but Science is Reality! If Buddhism does not conform to Science, it won't survive! Isn't the fear of Death what Mara is all about? Christianity survived because Christians stopped making art early on and stopped telling stories and. Oh wait a second! Now I get it. You are trying to make Buddhism highly unpleasant so that it spreads like Catholicism! I see what you are doing now! Shoving suttas down the throats of people like Bible verses! Hey, you may actually be on to something!

Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2017, 07:23:49 pm »
Sarcasm and wordplay isn't that effective with everyone. Stating your point in plain and direct language would help more people understand and inspire them to participate.

Having said that, those who study and practice will eventually find out the essence of any -ism, not just Buddhism. Of course, the teachings of Buddha, just like any other ancient discipline, has been corrupted and modified over the course of millennia. But still after a certain years of practice people would realize the essence.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2017, 09:00:14 pm »
So what is your story? What are you into? What do you like? Do you like your Buddhism? Lets compare and contrast or whatever. Do you consider yourself a Buddhist? What would that be in your opinion?

Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2017, 11:18:15 pm »
I am looking for the truth, about me, about the world, about everything. I do not think of whether I am a Buddhist or not. Any -ist is just a label. It just happens to be that Buddha's teachings in Tipitaka are closest to what I found myself before I came into Buddhism. I would call myself a seeker only. And I practice selected things from Buddhism and some other things that I found on my own.

Offline ground

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2017, 11:27:17 pm »
I am looking for the truth,...
Hmh maybe not the best starting point to premise what one is looking for but hasn't been seen before.

Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 12:00:30 am »
I am looking for the truth,...
Hmh maybe not the best starting point to premise what one is looking for but hasn't been seen before.

That's saying like: not good to start the journey if you don't know what lies at the destination. So how many people actually know what career they want at the time of graduation? Or how many people know clearly what kind of partner they want when they start searching for a partner? Journeys can begin without knowing what lies at the destination. Consider another thing: when scientists start research in an unknown area they are looking for explanations for things that they see, and eventually find something (truth or law of physics whatever) that explains the phenomenon/na they see.

I see I am, I see the world is. I don't know what it is and why it is. And the answers to these questions is what I call 'truth' that I am looking for.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2017, 12:13:28 am »
Very excellent Rahul, thank you so much for taking the time to type all that out each time, I really appreciate it, and you brought up good points.

There are some aspects of what you have said which I am curious about. Please feel free to type more, whatever comes to mind or your heart which you might like to discuss here.

I freely and confidently identify as many things because I am able to speak in those languages, so I don't mind calling myself a Buddhist, I enjoy calling myself that.

What would you say to the idea that the truth is Violence or Impact, which in other words might be called Presence?

Would you say the Philosophical is more important to you, or the technical and cosmological as compared to the Ethical?

Offline ground

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 12:56:25 am »
I am looking for the truth,...
Hmh maybe not the best starting point to premise what one is looking for but hasn't been seen before.

That's saying like: not good to start the journey if you don't know what lies at the destination.
That is an invalid illustration. Why? Because one has seen many potential destinations already before one starts a journey. But you never have seen a truth when setting out to seek truth. you only imputed things to be true but there were many others that rejected your imputations and they could because you only imputed truth but there hasn't been any truth independent of your imputation.

So how many people actually know what career they want at the time of graduation?
Again an invalid illustration. Why? Because people know a diversity of potential careers already.

Or how many people know clearly what kind of partner they want when they start searching for a partner?
Again an invalid illustration. Why? Because people know a diversity of potential partners already.


I see I am, I see the world is. I don't know what it is and why it is. And the answers to these questions is what I call 'truth' that I am looking for.
What you merely call 'truth' isn't necessarily truth from its own side.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 01:47:22 am »
By Modern Buddhism I mean this new thing where one imagines everything is baseless and worthless except the most modern psychological scientific interpretation of extremely ancient writings, having the odd faith that the Buddha was somehow a modern scientist who studied at MIT.

But the Buddha was like this. The Buddha taught in his 2nd sermon all conditioned things are unsatisfactory (dukkha); thus the only satisfactoriness in life is the dispassion & letting go called 'Nibbana'.

Modern Buddhism is the same as the ancient Buddhism.  :namaste:


Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 05:07:02 pm »
Very cool, please feel free to show me and tell me more here, I am listening and liking it very much.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2017, 06:50:55 pm »
If Buddhism, as social phenomena, maintained its original pure form that existed at the very very beginning, it probably would be very small. However, this does not mean the hard core "scientific" purists are invalid.


Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2017, 07:21:58 pm »
I am looking for the truth,...
Hmh maybe not the best starting point to premise what one is looking for but hasn't been seen before.

That's saying like: not good to start the journey if you don't know what lies at the destination.
That is an invalid illustration. Why? Because one has seen many potential destinations already before one starts a journey. But you never have seen a truth when setting out to seek truth. you only imputed things to be true but there were many others that rejected your imputations and they could because you only imputed truth but there hasn't been any truth independent of your imputation.

So how many people actually know what career they want at the time of graduation?
Again an invalid illustration. Why? Because people know a diversity of potential careers already.

Or how many people know clearly what kind of partner they want when they start searching for a partner?
Again an invalid illustration. Why? Because people know a diversity of potential partners already.


I see I am, I see the world is. I don't know what it is and why it is. And the answers to these questions is what I call 'truth' that I am looking for.
What you merely call 'truth' isn't necessarily truth from its own side.

One has to start from somewhere. Going by your argument, there won't be anything like truth.

Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2017, 07:27:34 pm »
Very excellent Rahul, thank you so much for taking the time to type all that out each time, I really appreciate it, and you brought up good points.

There are some aspects of what you have said which I am curious about. Please feel free to type more, whatever comes to mind or your heart which you might like to discuss here.

I freely and confidently identify as many things because I am able to speak in those languages, so I don't mind calling myself a Buddhist, I enjoy calling myself that.

What would you say to the idea that the truth is Violence or Impact, which in other words might be called Presence?

Would you say the Philosophical is more important to you, or the technical and cosmological as compared to the Ethical?

I really don't understand the questions you posed. Nor am I into the philosophy that much. I practice meditation and concentration to gain insights about the reality we experience. And that's my focus. Ethics to me is useless, I remember a line from a song which says: 'what's ethics? labels given by society and religions on acts. when society changes, religions change, how do you ascertain the true ethics?'.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2017, 09:05:44 pm »
Very excellent Rahul, thank you so much for taking the time to type all that out each time, I really appreciate it, and you brought up good points.

There are some aspects of what you have said which I am curious about. Please feel free to type more, whatever comes to mind or your heart which you might like to discuss here.

I freely and confidently identify as many things because I am able to speak in those languages, so I don't mind calling myself a Buddhist, I enjoy calling myself that.

What would you say to the idea that the truth is Violence or Impact, which in other words might be called Presence?

Would you say the Philosophical is more important to you, or the technical and cosmological as compared to the Ethical?

I really don't understand the questions you posed. Nor am I into the philosophy that much. I practice meditation and concentration to gain insights about the reality we experience. And that's my focus. Ethics to me is useless, I remember a line from a song which says: 'what's ethics? labels given by society and religions on acts. when society changes, religions change, how do you ascertain the true ethics?'.

True, that is true, except that throughout history the Buddhist movements have had a focus on ethics. If ethics are not important, then there is no reason to really believe in much of the mumbo-jumbo of Buddhism, why would going on a killing spree even matter if one can simply get away with it? Why should guilt or non-guilty feelings really spare a person from anything. Take out the ethics from Buddhism and you don't have much left. Put in the ethics of Buddhism, and you have an ooga-booga religion that is all about not hurting people and getting good stuff for doing good, bad stuff for doing bad, in sometimes hard to trace or justify ways.

I'm not so totally certain that "ancient Buddhism" was really following the Western Scientific Model or Hyper-Atheistic model, but in any case it certainly didn't stick to it even if it ever was like that. Buddhism seemed to be or become about "don't hurt the person because then you'll get bad things eventually and spread bad things", but in this life, if we get away with a crime, who will really care or know?

So then a person has to make a choice, are they the ooga-booga ethics type of Buddhist or the one who says "ethics, what are ethics, ethics don't matter".

Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2017, 11:45:09 pm »

If ethics are not important, then there is no reason to really believe in much of the mumbo-jumbo of Buddhism...



I don't know what things you consider 'mumbo-jumbo' of Buddhism. There is some, but that's added later on as Buddhism spread around the world. The original teachings didn't have much of it. 


Take out the ethics from Buddhism and you don't have much left.



Ethics is not the crux of Buddhism. Apart from the ethics there is a lot of analysis, methods, and practices to understand the mind, control the mind, get over the emotions, and get insights about the phenomena around us.

Ethics is a part of the noble eight-fold path - which can be considered core practice of the Buddhism. Apart from ethics, there are right view, right efforts, right concentration, too. They are much bigger and deeper than what they seem at first.

You may want to refer to Samanaphal Sutta for the core practice of Buddhism and the benefits: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html


Buddhism seemed to be or become about "don't hurt the person because then you'll get bad things eventually and spread bad things"...



Sadly that's how it morphed gradually. You hear influential Budddhist leaders all talking about compassion, love, happiness, and that's it. But this is not what Buddhism is all about.

Ethics was emphasized by Buddha as a tool to get rid of all remorse, which in turn gives mental peace, which makes meditation and concentration much more effective. Plus some other reasons, but let us not get into them now.

 


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