Author Topic: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant  (Read 807 times)

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2017, 02:07:58 am »
The Artis Magistra, you should consider that you are free to call yourself a Buddhist.

But you won't get recognition from those who have studied Buddhist literature and have undertaken some practices. There is the original pali canon called 'tipitaka', Mahayana suttas, zen koans and suttas, etc. to name a few. There is practice of mindfulness, meditation, eight-fold path, compassion, contemplation, etc. practiced by various schools of Buddhism. There is a symbolism in present-day Buddhism: symbols representing the dhamma, triple gems, Buddha's symbolic representation, yantras, mandalas, etc. There are some ceremonies, some rituals.  There are some precepts for laymen. There is a vocabulary with special meaning, there are some concepts with more or less common meaning to all schools: emptiness, impermanence, no-self...

It's a deep subject. And from your posts, it is evident you are not familiar with these at all. And you are misinterpreting even basic concepts. So how do you expect to get recognition from other members who have spent years or decades in studying and practicing these?

You keep asking what is Buddhism and why people think you are not a Buddhist. Well, you would be in a better position to answer for yourself if you studied and practiced some of those I listed above.

I have studied all of those which you have mentioned. What I write has a specific purpose. Am I limited to write only what you consider "Buddhist enough" and if what you deem "Not Buddhist really" is written, you then say "it is evident" that I am not aware of those things?

Yet you do not call yourself a Buddhist, nor does the VisuddhiRaptor, yet you both spend your time shaming others and telling them if they are Buddhist or not? What I promote is actually widely practiced and confirmed in writings considered Buddhist, and have no real difficulty with anyone except people who shy away even from calling themselves Buddhists, who would likely be considered by many people as "interlopers" of the tradition and religion, colonizing it as Atheist Western Science addicted people who reject the faith and the religion of Buddhism and try to strip it and white-wash it of many things in your attempt, as conquerors, to say "This is Buddhist, This is not Buddhist".

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2017, 02:09:46 am »
Which is the theme of my thread. Why "Modern Buddhism" is highly unpleasant. By "Modern Buddhism", I mean the types of things you are doing, not the types of things I am doing, and the types of things you are saying to people ("Ethics aren't important in Buddhism or a focal point" for example), not the types of things I am saying to people.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2017, 02:11:18 am »

Without "truth", i.e., lawful coherence, everything would be very confusing.  :dharma:

The opposite is the case. With 'truth' it would be very confusing that the world know countless incompatible views and that every community of believers asserts their beliefs to be true.


Ground you are confusing truth with the 'claim something to be true'. The word 'truth' can be abused knowingly or unknowingly. The truth exists, either Buddha was born, or he was not. Or Either there was a set of teachings that Buddha gave (which would, in common sense, would qualify to be 'original' Buddhism) or there had never been such 'original' Buddhism. The truth exists, but people don't know and claim this or that to be truth. Things are not complicated by the concept of the truth, things are complicated by contradicting claims of what is truth.

Anyways, it seems that you like to argue a lot for the sake of arguing. Finding loopholes in explanations and then finding implications of loopholes to have fun etc. while ignoring the crux of the argument etc. Which is a skill in its way, but just how beneficial? It doesn't help anyone, including you.

But you are free to continue your practice of dissecting sentences and applying your standards of logical interpretation etc. if that gives you fun.

Are you innocent of such?

Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2017, 02:48:41 am »
Which is the theme of my thread. Why "Modern Buddhism" is highly unpleasant. By "Modern Buddhism", I mean the types of things you are doing, not the types of things I am doing, and the types of things you are saying to people ("Ethics aren't important in Buddhism or a focal point" for example), not the types of things I am saying to people.

Think again, TAM. Buddhism of this era is not unpleasant, but you are feeling unpleasant because you want others to have same perception of Buddhism as you, because you want others to acknowledge that your idea of 'being a Buddhist' and 'what is Buddhism' is true. You are not getting that acknowledgement and support and that's what makes you feel uncomfortable.

Why should person A change their perception because of person B? Let everyone have their perceptions. You like ethics, just focus on ethics. But what Buddha taught during his lifetime, and what evolved as 'Buddhism' over the course of history, never had ethics at core. You made it your focus, then you expect the whole world to agree with you. This is very less likely to happen.

Is anyone stopping you from not focusing on ethics? Is anyone stopping you from practicing ethics? Definitely no. Then why this whole pointless discussion?

Offline ground

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2017, 04:27:18 am »

Without "truth", i.e., lawful coherence, everything would be very confusing.  :dharma:

The opposite is the case. With 'truth' it would be very confusing that the world know countless incompatible views and that every community of believers asserts their beliefs to be true.


Ground you are confusing truth with the 'claim something to be true'.
No because if there were nobody claiming truth it would be obvious that truth does not exist.

The word 'truth' can be abused knowingly or unknowingly.
In any case it is just imputation.

The truth exists, either Buddha was born, or he was not.
This has nothing to do with truth but with appropriate or inappropriate linguistic expressions.


Or Either there was a set of teachings that Buddha gave (which would, in common sense, would qualify to be 'original' Buddhism) or there had never been such 'original' Buddhism. 
That's rediculous to call 'original' that is merely based on hearsay.  :teehee:


The truth exists, but people don't know and claim this or that to be truth. Things are not complicated by the concept of the truth, things are complicated by contradicting claims of what is truth.
you are just one of a billion that all claim a diversity of truths that contradict each other.

Anyways, it seems that you like to argue a lot for the sake of arguing. Finding loopholes in explanations and then finding implications of loopholes to have fun etc. while ignoring the crux of the argument etc. Which is a skill in its way, but just how beneficial? It doesn't help anyone, including you.
Whoever perceives emptiness of true existence that one also knows that truths don't exist. And whoever is subject to innate truth habits is tricked by those.

But you are free to continue your practice of dissecting sentences and applying your standards of logical interpretation etc. if that gives you fun.
It's not about fun but about liberation that I am talking.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2017, 07:03:18 am »
Which is the theme of my thread. Why "Modern Buddhism" is highly unpleasant. By "Modern Buddhism", I mean the types of things you are doing, not the types of things I am doing, and the types of things you are saying to people ("Ethics aren't important in Buddhism or a focal point" for example), not the types of things I am saying to people.

Think again, TAM. Buddhism of this era is not unpleasant, but you are feeling unpleasant because you want others to have same perception of Buddhism as you, because you want others to acknowledge that your idea of 'being a Buddhist' and 'what is Buddhism' is true. You are not getting that acknowledgement and support and that's what makes you feel uncomfortable.

Why should person A change their perception because of person B? Let everyone have their perceptions. You like ethics, just focus on ethics. But what Buddha taught during his lifetime, and what evolved as 'Buddhism' over the course of history, never had ethics at core. You made it your focus, then you expect the whole world to agree with you. This is very less likely to happen.

Is anyone stopping you from not focusing on ethics? Is anyone stopping you from practicing ethics? Definitely no. Then why this whole pointless discussion?

Was it a little left or a little right from the core?

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2017, 07:06:08 am »
You have such a clear picture of Buddhism, other people do not know Buddhism as you do, you have understood it while they have not understood it, so you decide how it looks, what its core is, what is not its core, what model or emphasis is right or wrong. Right? This is what I call saying "This is Buddhism, this is not Buddhism".

Offline Solodris

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2017, 07:17:19 am »
You have such a clear picture of Buddhism, other people do not know Buddhism as you do, you have understood it while they have not understood it, so you decide how it looks, what its core is, what is not its core, what model or emphasis is right or wrong. Right? This is what I call saying "This is Buddhism, this is not Buddhism".

Could you expound some thoughts on buddha-nature?

Thanks.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2017, 08:48:44 am »
You have such a clear picture of Buddhism, other people do not know Buddhism as you do, you have understood it while they have not understood it, so you decide how it looks, what its core is, what is not its core, what model or emphasis is right or wrong. Right? This is what I call saying "This is Buddhism, this is not Buddhism".

Could you expound some thoughts on buddha-nature?

Thanks.

Thank you for asking.

The idea developed or came to exist, or so we hear now, that Buddhism was before the Buddha and that the Buddha was just another Buddha, one of many, who appearing in various lands and conditions and worlds and experiences brought the Dharma of Universal Truth and truth of this life and world as well.

The Nature which is the Clear View which watches through all experience and appearance is the Awake or truly Alert and Conscious. Free from absorption into identity or dreams, it is the pure force which is experiencing what it generates.

The Buddha-Nature is the True, free from pollution, which out of compassion, relates to itself in every way, every moment, by all means, in all forms, the awareness of itself, which itself is Awareness and Pure Action.

There is no separation thus between things truly, except that they are the words of the Supreme Dharma uttered by the Supreme Buddha or the True and Pure Nature which underlies all appearance or teachings, and even the moss on a tree is the Dharma elaborated by the Master Nature of True Self. What these other things we call "self" are appearances, words, attachments, and not the Immortal, Ever-Existing, Appearance that is Like Nothing and truly Free and unrestrained.

We live and we operate in the immediate appearances of what we experience by this Nature and what we experience Is this Nature, convoluted or concealed and covered by a deceptive interpretation of everything as something else and further that even as something else and more and more until we are seeing things so much that we think there is no Buddha-Nature at all, that there are other Dharmas or no Dharma and that we ourselves are cut off from it all as an "Other" of "Others".

This delusion is allowed, and this illusion is worked through. The key is Freedom, and though there appears domination, there is only illusion or maya which gives the One the appearance of Many even to itself. The Highest or Ideal is not deceived by this, but deeper and deeper an idea here and there may be what we experience as our lost idle musings when alone. There is great joy also in dispelling these doubts and coming more and more to realize through various means the Supreme Truth. You will find disputers, and these disputers exist within the greater body of an experience, and the totality of truth and what orders it is run as any appearance.

This life is a communication of the True Buddha to the Buddha in us all, of course, only one who is awake can realize this when they can.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2017, 06:34:06 pm »
The idea developed or came to exist, or so we hear now, that Buddhism was before the Buddha and that the Buddha was just another Buddha, one of many, who appearing in various lands and conditions and worlds and experiences brought the Dharma of Universal Truth and truth of this life and world as well.

This resonates with Mahayana and Vajrayana teaching, where we'll see numerous Asadhana references describing viaualization of the "Buddhas of the Ten Directions and Three Time".  There are also the 6 Dhyani Buddhas, he Buddha Vajradhara from which the Kagyu claim lineage, Medicine Buddha, Amitabha  and so on.  The Buddhavamsa names 29 Buddhas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_named_Buddhas


Offline IdleChater

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2017, 06:40:15 pm »

Buddhism not really a "religion".

Don't be naive.  Of course it's a religion.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2017, 06:57:09 pm »
By Modern Buddhism I mean this new thing where one imagines everything is baseless and worthless except the most modern psychological scientific interpretation of extremely ancient writings, having the odd faith that the Buddha was somehow a modern scientist who studied at MIT.

Going further, all the years of color and light and the beautiful ways in which the Dharma was brought to numerous people are, according to the Modern Buddhist as being described here, Pagan Folly, and instead there were supposedly these super scientists telling people that all their ideas are just plainly stupid. Of course back then, those wonderful vampires teaching the ultimate suck, were failures, since the pagan fools went ahead making their blasphemous artworks and teaching the Dharma using all sorts of naughty methods, like jovial conversations and being friendly, telling stories, and not out of their great wisdom or their hidden ability to copy paste, jam the Pali Canon down every throat they could.

I would tend to agree.  I think most of the unpleasantness in Modern Buddhism is on the web, where most of the crap you describe takes place.

There are those who want to rip the beautiful heart of of Buddhism and replace with something cold, sterile, heartless and numb.

Quote
Shoving suttas down the throats of people like Bible verses! Hey, you may actually be on to something!

I've thought the same thing.

Back when I was an Evangelical Christian, I knew people who could quote the Bible, chapter and verse and would bludgeon believers and unbeleievers alike with it.  Yet, their understanding was truly pitiful.  You see those kinds of Buddhists ( and I use the term somewhat loosely) online all the time.  They can copy/paste from access to insight all day long, but all they can do i=s tell you what the sutras say.  They don't know what they mean.

Offline Rahul

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2017, 08:49:53 pm »

Buddhism not really a "religion".

Don't be naive.  Of course it's a religion.

It would be naive to say Buddhism is a religion. There is no worship or rituals prescribed by the Buddha. There is no god. The Buddha said clearly we don't get/lose things by mercy of any god, it's all fruit of our karma. All he gave was a set of practices. It never was a religion. But as it spread around the world, people morphed it. People want a god to rely upon, people want prayers and idols to worship and get satisfaction of having done something good etc. That's how it turned out.

But you are free to believe that Buddhism is a religion.

Offline ground

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2017, 11:34:45 pm »

Buddhism not really a "religion".

Don't be naive.  Of course it's a religion.

It would be naive to say Buddhism is a religion. There is no worship or rituals prescribed by the Buddha. There is no god. The Buddha said clearly we don't get/lose things by mercy of any god, it's all fruit of our karma. All he gave was a set of practices. It never was a religion. But as it spread around the world, people morphed it. People want a god to rely upon, people want prayers and idols to worship and get satisfaction of having done something good etc. That's how it turned out.

But you are free to believe that Buddhism is a religion.
Of course buddhism is a religion. A religion is not necessarily theist religion. Buddhism is a religion due to its beliefs, e.g. belief in karma and re-birth.
What distinguishes buddhism from other religions is that it can be purified from all religious beliefs and there still remains a system of practise that can have psychotherapeutic positive effects that can be likened to 'liberation from innate habits'.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 11:38:16 pm by ground »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Modern Buddhism is unpleasant
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2017, 01:16:24 am »
The idea developed or came to exist, or so we hear now, that Buddhism was before the Buddha and that the Buddha was just another Buddha, one of many, who appearing in various lands and conditions and worlds and experiences brought the Dharma of Universal Truth and truth of this life and world as well.

This resonates with Mahayana and Vajrayana teaching, where we'll see numerous Asadhana references describing viaualization of the "Buddhas of the Ten Directions and Three Time".  There are also the 6 Dhyani Buddhas, he Buddha Vajradhara from which the Kagyu claim lineage, Medicine Buddha, Amitabha  and so on.  The Buddhavamsa names 29 Buddhas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_named_Buddhas

Fantastic post and yes, my area of Buddhism is Mahayana and Vajrayana mainly, encompassing a study of many sects and schools. Yet, the Mahayana website I visited was extremely hostile towards very standard or typical Mahayana and Vajrayana ideas and even to discuss such things. These appeared to be people who were treating Buddhism more like Martial Arts schools than a religion. I was the only Buddhist with Buddhist upbringing and heritage and ancestry there but was treated extremely badly for sharing common Mahayana and Vajrayana ideas which was interesting to see. Mahayana Buddhism is supposed to be very free and helpful and I hope these obstructions can be increasingly reduced to encourage people to speak and share and take all the good they can from everything they can for their benefit and all benefit.

 


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