Author Topic: Pain and pleasure  (Read 239 times)

Offline Arkena

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Pain and pleasure
« on: July 06, 2017, 06:34:57 pm »
What is the problem with pain and pleasure?

The major problem i can see is the internal reaction to each and how people chase gratification of the senses in the belief thats how to live a meaningful and happy life.

Offline ground

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Re: Pain and pleasure
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2017, 01:26:34 am »
The major problem i can see is the internal reaction to each and how people chase gratification of the senses in the belief thats how to live a meaningful and happy life.
yes and that the internal reaction is an innate habit which is not easily overcome. That's actually the purpose of buddhist practice: to overcome innate habits.

Offline Arkena

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Re: Pain and pleasure
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2017, 02:24:14 am »
the problem is not pleasure it is our reaction to it....the goal would be to have that internal reaction just permanently switched on...joy etc

and the problem is how we associate the external world with our inner states no?

Offline ground

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Re: Pain and pleasure
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2017, 02:38:31 am »
the problem is not pleasure it is our reaction to it....

yes but it is at least difficult, if not impossible, to separate the reaction to it from pleasure.

the goal would be to have that internal reaction just permanently switched on...joy etc

The goal in the world is to have permanent pleasure. However pleasure is always impermanent. It comes and goes. And sometimes these phenomena cause pleasure and sometimes other phenomena cause pleasure. So pleasure is not only impermanent but also uncertain with reference to specific phenomena. And the difference between wanting and its impermanence and uncertainty is what causes craving.

and the problem is how we associate the external world with our inner states no?

It is just about feelings - as defined in buddhism. In buddhism 'feeling' refers to scale from aversion/dislike over indifference to attachment/like. The world becomes dominated by these feelings and all phenomena are assessed only on the basis of what kind of feelings they may cause.

Quote
"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
...
"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 02:43:23 am by ground »

Offline Arkena

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Re: Pain and pleasure
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2017, 04:03:45 am »
in my ignorance i sometimes think these teachings mean attaching aversion to pleasure...but i know aversion is a delusion a form of labelling...

I do see how we mistake outer enjoyment for inner states of joy and this misunderstanding has us looking for the wrong things in life...

Offline ground

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Re: Pain and pleasure
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2017, 05:17:01 am »
Aversion and attachment are just the two sides of feeling ... dislike and like or hate and love. However there may be individuals that suffer more from aversion than from attachment or vv. There are practices for all types of individuals. Other individuals may have a main issue with the emotion fear which also may arise from a feeling of dislike and suffer from that. Countless individuals, countless traits.

The error generally is to equate the phenomenon with the feeling or emotion that arises in dependance of it as if the feeling or the emotion were an inherent quality of the phenomenon. But the phenomenon as such is neither attractive nor repulsive.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 05:58:18 am by ground »

 


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