Author Topic: Practicing the Eightfold Path  (Read 4349 times)

Offline Chaz

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2018, 01:35:53 pm »
And what is up with "effluents"  as in:

Quote
And what is the right livelihood with effluents....

Having spent over thirty years in the field of environmental safety and health, my working definition of effluents was / is about the same as yours.  However, not all effluents are as noxious as the one you chose. 

Yeah.  I just think it an odd choice of words.  9 out of 10 people probably couldn't tell you what the word means.  Seeing that, there must be a better word, but hey, I'm not on the translation committee.

I may have a bit more to say on this tomorrow.  The reading's getting easier.


Offline philboyd

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2018, 02:37:27 pm »
effluent comes from the Latin verb effluere (to flow out)
Peace

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2018, 04:18:14 am »

Effluents is like....sewage.   Right livelihood with.....sewage.

 :jinsyx:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2018, 04:24:30 am »
.  Perhaps someone wiser than the both of us could chime in and explain it to us?   :help:

Thank you dear Ron for your gracious invitation.  :namaste:

The Pali is "asava". The translation is not important, however it is translated as "outflows", "effluents", "cankers", "fermentations", "taints", etc.

What it essentially means is "defilements".

Therefore, there is a morality based right view, right thought, right speech, right action and right livelihood that is defiled; particularly defiled with self-views.

For example, the general religious beliefs in kamma & rebirth are polluted with self-views. This is the meaning of "asava".

Regards  :namaste:


Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2018, 04:27:14 am »
effluent comes from the Latin verb effluere (to flow out)


Thanks, philboyd.  So, what flows out of livelihood, which could be labeled an effluent?  And, in other suttas the word effluent is used in equally mysterious context.  Any ideas as to its meaning or definition in these contexts.  For example does it mean the same thing as "arise", such that thoughts, feelings and emotions arise from contacts associated with sense doors?  Example:  Feelings of anger arose when I saw my children being slaughtered by invaders. 


Substituting effluent for arose:  Effluents of anger gushed forth as my children were slaughtered before my eyes .


Does that make any sense to anyone?
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2018, 04:30:31 am »
.  Perhaps someone wiser than the both of us could chime in and explain it to us?   :help:

Thank you dear Ron for your gracious invitation.  :namaste:

The Pali is "asava". The translation is not important, however it is translated as "outflows", "effluents", "cankers", "fermentations", "taints", etc.

What it essentially means is "defilements".

Therefore, there is a morality based right view, right thought, right speech, right action and right livelihood that is defiled; particularly defiled with self-views.

For example, the general religious beliefs in kamma & rebirth are polluted with self-views. This is the meaning of "asava".

Regards  :namaste:

Thanks, Visuddhi!  I always knew you were wiser.  Much appreciated.  So, Idler wasn't too far off in his interpretation of the meaning.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2018, 04:41:19 am »
Thanks, Visuddhi!  I always knew you were wiser.  Much appreciated.  So, Idler wasn't too far off in his interpretation of the meaning.

Indeed. Because the Pali suttas are perfectly spoken by the Lord Buddha, the Dhamma-Eye appeared to open in the Idler.  While the run-of-the-mill religious beliefs in karma, etc, can foster morality, from a higher Buddhist viewpoint, they are considered "polluted" because they also foster self-views ("acquisitions" in MN 117).

:namaste:

Offline Chaz

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2018, 05:33:54 am »
effluent comes from the Latin verb effluere (to flow out)


Thanks, philboyd.  So, what flows out of livelihood, which could be labeled an effluent?  And, in other suttas the word effluent is used in equally mysterious context.  Any ideas as to its meaning or definition in these contexts.  For example does it mean the same thing as "arise", such that thoughts, feelings and emotions arise from contacts associated with sense doors?  Example:  Feelings of anger arose when I saw my children being slaughtered by invaders. 


Substituting effluent for arose:  Effluents of anger gushed forth as my children were slaughtered before my eyes .


Does that make any sense to anyone?

Yes, it does.

After my last post yesterday, I read Sujato's translation and he uses the word "defilement" instead of effluent.

Like I said earlier, I suspected that the word effluent was used create imagery of something flowing, noxious, nasty, smelly, dirty, etc.  At the time, while grasping at alternatives, I missed "defilement", which, for my capacity, seems the perfect term.

I actually like Sujato's translation better - not that I think it's an inherently better translation, it's just a easier read for me.  That said, I'll stick to the translation you linked to.

Now that I'm past that little roadblock, back to study.

Offline Chaz

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2018, 09:04:36 am »

Thanks, Visuddhi!  I always knew you were wiser.

He's not.  He's pedantic.  And irritable.

Offline Chaz

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2018, 10:05:08 am »
My study is confounded by an apparent lack of clear in struction on how to practive the N8FP.

One of my problmens is I get close, but then find some marked differences in translations.  Here are quotes for Thanissaro and Sujato. While both translators agree that "effort" is needed, what one does with the effort seems to differ.  Also Thanissaro uses "resolve" and Sujato uses "thought".

Thanissaro (T) -
Quote
One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong resolve & for entering right resolve:
Sujato (S) -
Quote
They make an effort to give up wrong thought and take up right thought:

Ok.  Effort.  Got that.  Make an effort.  T says "makes and effor for...".  S says "make an effort to..".  For and to are two different thimngs.  To make an effort for something is to make an effort with the eventual outcome of right thought/resolve.  An effort "to" is to commit to direct action such as willing thought to change.  Also we have "resolve" and "thought"  again, these are two different things.

So do we make an active effort to replace wrong with right.  Or do we make an effort in another direction, perhaps such as a meditation, mantra, nembutsu, or whatever practice that the ultimate fruition will include right thought/resolve?

If it's an active approach to thought change - like halting a thought process repeatedly - this seems a bit too Self-referencing to be beneficial.  A meditative approach allowing realizations and insights to whittle away at the obstructions on the path, might be more beneficial.  Just the same, neither way is clear to me in the sutta/sutra.

The sutta/sutra is a wealth of information on what the 8-folds actually are, but seemingly short on practice instruction. Conflicting translations don't help, either.

I imagine the two scholars are simply working with different root texts.  You see that in Mahayana materials as well.  Doesn't make things any easier, though.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 01:10:49 pm by IdleChater »

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2018, 01:49:49 am »
Quote
They are called "sutta" rather than "sutra". If you cannot abandon this habit of calling sutta "sutra" then there is probably little hope for you giving up more sticky forms of attachment & craving.

So for beginners - the 1st step is giving up Mahayana and its associated Hindu Sanskrit.

I'm reminded of Thanissaro's sectarian attacks on Mahayana. Non-attachment?

It's all rather silly.  Some might do well to read the Mahayana Sutras, fascinating stuff! 
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Offline Chaz

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2018, 09:11:59 am »
After a few more reads of "The Great Forty" sutra, I've come to the conlclusion that there isn't really anything in the way of clear in structions as to how to "practice" the N8FP.

I read comments by Rahula that promoted the idea of simply adopting right _____ - watching what you say, what you think, etc.  I'm still not sure about it and am unconvinced this is anything more than "self improvement". 

Other say that the Path is a gradual, everything-together-more-or-less, proposition.  Basically set out on the path and let attainment dictate what aspects of the path grow, where, and when.

What then is the practice?  The best I can come up with is my meditation practice.  It worked for the Buddha.

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2018, 01:42:17 am »
What then is the practice?  The best I can come up with is my meditation practice.  It worked for the Buddha.

There is a 3-fold version of the 8-fold path, which is morality, meditation and wisdom.  Meditation is usually described in terms of samatha ( calm ) and vipassana ( insight ).
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Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2018, 02:33:12 am »
What then is the practice?  The best I can come up with is my meditation practice.  It worked for the Buddha.

There is a 3-fold version of the 8-fold path, which is morality, meditation and wisdom.  Meditation is usually described in terms of samatha ( calm ) and vipassana ( insight ).

Yes, although following calm, you can use mindfulness in meditation (and in everyday life) to help develop morality and wisdom
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline Chaz

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Re: Practicing the Eightfold Path
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2018, 05:25:46 am »
What then is the practice?  The best I can come up with is my meditation practice.  It worked for the Buddha.

There is a 3-fold version of the 8-fold path, which is morality, meditation and wisdom.  Meditation is usually described in terms of samatha ( calm ) and vipassana ( insight ).

Yes, although following calm, you can use mindfulness in meditation (and in everyday life) to help develop morality and wisdom

Or you can meditate and let the fruit of that practice manifest as the Path

 


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