Author Topic: Probing into the false mind  (Read 583 times)

Offline Lotusmile

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Probing into the false mind
« on: March 30, 2018, 03:39:26 am »

I now deduce that if the mind is in the body, it does not see anything within and if it is outside, they both cease to feel each other. To say that it is within is wrong for it does not know anything in the body. To say that it is without is also faulty since body and mind can perceive each other. As they do so and since nothing is seen in the body, the mind should be between the two (i.e. the inside and outside).
The Buddha said: ëIf your conception of a mind ìin between is correct, it implies a position for it. Now according to your inference, where is this intermediate position? Do you mean that it is (in or on) the body? If it is on the surface of the body, it cannot be in its center, and the conception of a mind in the center is no different from that of a mind in the body (which was refuted earlier). (Moreover) is its position manifest or not? If it is not, it does not exist. If it is, it is not fixed. Why? For instance, if a stake is driven into the ground to mark a center, when seen from the east it is in the west and when seen from the south it is in the north. As this stake can only lead to confusion, so is (your conception of) a mind in between completely chaotic.
Ananda said: ëThe intermediate position that I men- tioned is not these two. As the World Honoured One has said, the eyes and form are causes from which sight- perception arises. While the eyes can distinguish, form does not follow anything and perception lies between them; hence the mind arises.
The Buddha said: ëIf the mind lies between sense organs and sense data, does it include both or not? If it does, its substance and what is outside will be mixed up to- gether, and since the mind perceives while its objects do not, two opposites will be set up; then how can there be an intermediate (position)? If it is not inclusive, (that is if it is independent of the sense organs and sense data), being neither the knower (subject) nor the known (object), it has no substance; then what is this intermediate? Therefore, your contention that it is in between is groundless.í

Offline allanwattsiscool

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Re: Probing into the false mind
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2018, 03:02:25 pm »
I feel like you want to play some Buddhist Word Chess with us!! :D. I feel like you are someone who has been given many koans and are trying to solve them. I admire that. I too have attempted in the past to put the pieces of knowledge together.

The finger is pointing to the moon. The finger is not the moon. In the same way, the knowledge and text of Buddhism is like a finger pointing to enlightenment.  What is important to understand is that knowledge is merely a raft in which we use to align ourselves with the real practice of silent self reflection. In this way the actual logic of the dhamma is less important than the state of being which the dhamma brings us to. There is no unified dhamma theory, but there is only one way.

    with love,


                    ghostsofthepast

Offline Lotusmile

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Re: Probing into the false mind
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2018, 11:41:30 pm »
This is sheer nonsense. If the mind has substance, when your hand grasps your body, does your mind feeling this (touch) come from within or with- out? If from within, you should see what is in your body and if from without, you should see your face.
Ananda said: It is the eyes that see and the mind that knows is not the eyes: to say that it sees is wrong.
The Buddha said; If the eyes can see, when you are in a room, do you see the door (outside)?Those who are dead and still have eyes, should see things if they still see, how can they be dead? Ananda, if your knowing mind has substance, is that substance single or manifold? As it is in your body, does it spread to every part of it or not? If it is one substance, when you grasp a limb, all four should feel that they are grasped; if so there would be no grasping (of any particular limb). If there is, the contention of a single substance does not hold good. If it is a manifold substance there should be many persons; then which substance is yours if it spreads to every part of your body, this is the same as in the previous case of grasping. If it does not spread, then when you touch your head and foot at the same time, while your head feels that it is touched; your foot should not, but this is not so. Therefore, your contention that the mind arises where there is union with externals is groundless.

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Probing into the false mind
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 02:40:39 am »
I like reading the dharma, but isn't it pretty pointless cutting and pasting this stuff without your own comments? Do you understand what the Buddha was trying to say? Do you agree with it or disagree? I find it all rather incomprehensible without considerable commentary, to see if there's anything I've missed meaning-wise.

Personally, I find the whole argument pretty meaningless.

“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Probing into the false mind
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 02:42:07 am »
Practically speaking, it seems like the mind is a changing space in which mental objects and states arise. 

I don't get the OP title - is there a "real" mind as compared to a false "mind"? 
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Probing into the false mind
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 03:57:27 am »
The Buddha didn't know any better since he was living in a time before the science we currently have. The Buddha was questioning whether "the mind lies between sense organs and sense data". This is actually near to the truth as we know it today. The conscious mind takes in some data from the sense organs (10%), but most is from that already in the brain (90%), so that the mind in this sense lies between the sense organs and the data already held in the brain. What we experience is a mix of the two, with the brain constructing much of what we think we experience.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline allanwattsiscool

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Re: Probing into the false mind
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 04:52:52 pm »
"This is sheer nonsense. If the mind has substance, when your hand grasps your body, does your mind feeling this (touch) come from within or with- out? If from within, you should see what is in your body and if from without, you should see your face."

My answer to that is I am not searching for answers to such questions anymore. I am at peace and so I have no use for any teaching or teacher.

 


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