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A Mosaic of Traditions - One Virtual Sangha => The Dharma Express => Topic started by: ground on September 15, 2017, 08:51:12 pm

Title: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: ground on September 15, 2017, 08:51:12 pm
Isn't it fascinating how that which is utterly simple has an inherent urge to proliferate into complexity?

If one does not trace back complexity to its source how can there ever be what the theravadins call 'nibbida' and 'virago'?

Empty of everything and nothing.  :fu:
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: philboyd on September 16, 2017, 03:31:06 am
The "source " of complexity is ignorance of Four Noble Truths.
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 16, 2017, 03:54:15 am
Isn't it fascinating how that which is utterly simple has an inherent urge to proliferate into complexity?

If one does not trace back complexity to its source how can there ever be what the theravadins call 'nibbida' and 'virago'?

Empty of everything and nothing.  :fu:

Can it really be that simple?   :listen:
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: Solodris on September 16, 2017, 04:39:05 am
Isn't it fascinating how that which is utterly simple has an inherent urge to proliferate into complexity?

If one does not trace back complexity to its source how can there ever be what the theravadins call 'nibbida' and 'virago'?

Empty of everything and nothing.  :fu:

Can it really be that simple?   :listen:

Non-attachment is the simplest teaching.
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 16, 2017, 07:20:18 am
Quote
solodris:  "Non-attachment is the simplest teaching."

Fair enough. :wink1:

So, why is it that we continue to attach ourselves to that which causes our suffering?

While it is well and good to say that attachment causes suffering / stress / dissatisfaction / birth, aging, disease, and death, how do we recognize that to which we have become desirous, and how do we let it go once we have become addicted?  What are the hallmarks of addiction clearly recognizable to the addict, who will do anything to get their next fix?  Even if recognized, what is that which will motivate them to let go?   

Is this one of those advisories easier said than done? :listen:

Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: Solodris on September 16, 2017, 08:15:52 am
Quote
solodris:  "Non-attachment is the simplest teaching."

Fair enough. :wink1:

So, why is it that we continue to attach ourselves to that which causes our suffering?

While it is well and good to say that attachment causes suffering / stress / dissatisfaction / birth, aging, disease, and death, how do we recognize that to which we have become desirous, and how do we let it go once we have become addicted?  What are the hallmarks of addiction clearly recognizable to the addict, who will do anything to get their next fix?  Even if recognized, what is that which will motivate them to let go?   

Is this one of those advisories easier said than done? :listen:

There might be a lack of skill in finding some sort of purpose that's compelling for someone that have not really been exposed to much and have low skill in making an effort to change. Simply finding something to do eventually becomes a burden and that just sets the cycle in unhealthy behavior to continue.
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: Solodris on September 16, 2017, 08:52:24 am
Finding something meaningful to do with the conditions presented might be an alternative.
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: IdleChater on September 16, 2017, 03:31:05 pm
So, why is it that we continue to attach ourselves to that which causes our suffering?

Because, deep down, we still think that those impermanent things we attach to are permanent.  Real. 

It means that knowing they cause suffering is not sufficient for us to relinquish it.  It's like this:  I knew that smoking causes cancer since I was a kid, but once I started, it took 40 year to finally quit.  The certain knowledge of a slow, painful, lingering death, drowning in my own pflegm wasn't enough.  I needed more just that.

The same with the realizations that are the cessation of suffering.  Simply knowing is not enough.  You have to go deeper.  Much deeper.  You have to go to places science and common sense have no place.  You have to go to the places that arhants, bodhisattvas and buddhas go.
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: Solodris on September 16, 2017, 05:25:25 pm
So, why is it that we continue to attach ourselves to that which causes our suffering?

Because, deep down, we still think that those impermanent things we attach to are permanent.  Real. 

It means that knowing they cause suffering is not sufficient for us to relinquish it.  It's like this:  I knew that smoking causes cancer since I was a kid, but once I started, it took 40 year to finally quit.  The certain knowledge of a slow, painful, lingering death, drowning in my own pflegm wasn't enough.  I needed more just that.

The same with the realizations that are the cessation of suffering.  Simply knowing is not enough.  You have to go deeper.  Much deeper.  You have to go to places science and common sense have no place.  You have to go to the places that arhants, bodhisattvas and buddhas go.

We are no longer confused, no need for doubt or worry, we don't plan to fail.
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: ground on September 17, 2017, 09:34:40 pm
Isn't it fascinating how that which is utterly simple has an inherent urge to proliferate into complexity?

If one does not trace back complexity to its source how can there ever be what the theravadins call 'nibbida' and 'virago'?

Empty of everything and nothing.  :fu:

Can it really be that simple?   :listen:

'It'?  :fu:
Title: Re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 18, 2017, 02:03:02 am
Non-attachment is the simplest teaching.

Though I think that's a result of insight, not something you can "do".
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