Author Topic: Rebirth  (Read 246 times)

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 1991
    • View Profile
Rebirth
« on: August 06, 2017, 11:14:24 pm »
What is rebirth?
It is the anew arising of what has ceased before. The basis of rebirth is identity, i.e. that which arises is that which has ceased before.


How can rebirth be validly known?

It can be validly known through having directly perceived a thing before its cessation and through directly perceiving its anew arising. Thus one can validly know 'This has existed before it ceased and now it has arisen again.' based on direct perception.


Can a living being be reborn?
A living being cannot be reborn. Why? Because although a living being can be directly perceived before it ceases to live a living being that is newly born cannot be traced back to a living being that has ceased to live before through direct perception. There is no directly perceptible sign of a living being that would necessarily indicate that it had existed before it was born.


What can be inferred?
The word 'rebirth' that occurs in authentic buddhist texts in the context of the birth of living beings is a metaphor because there is no directly perceptible basis for its non-metaphorical use.

Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 11:18:32 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 514
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 11:33:23 pm »
What arises anew?

And

Quote
Thus one can validly know 'This has existed before it ceased and now it has arisen again.' based on direct perception.

Sawing: one saying, "I have been an hungry ghost before" could be quite valid.

Only a living being can be reborn. How could something having abounded the aggregats be reborn and again, what?
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 319
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 01:27:56 pm »
What is rebirth?... The basis of rebirth is identity
Re-birth is the arising of a new identity, such as: "I am now a non-perceiving-non-naming Taoist".  :teehee:

Quote
How can rebirth be validly known?

By knowing the new thoughts of identity, such as: "I am happy; I am a Buddhist; I like chocolate; I hate Theravada". All of these "I" thoughts are new identity or births. Each arising of an identity is the rebirth of identifying or selfing. Buddhism 101.  :om:

Quote
be validly known through having directly perceived a thing before its cessation and through directly perceiving its anew arising. Thus one can validly know 'This has existed before it ceased and now it has arisen again.' based on direct perception.

"Things" are not subject to rebirth because this would mean it is the same thing reborn.  :lmfao:

But all (conditioned) "things" are continual transformations & changings therefore "things" cannot be "reborn".  :smack:

What is rebirth is the process of selfing or identifying, which creates new ideas about 'self'.  :argue:

When are you going to give up these delusions about 'perception' & 'non-perception'.  :teehee:

Quote
The word 'rebirth' that occurs in authentic buddhist texts in the context of the birth of living beings is a metaphor because there is no directly perceptible basis for its non-metaphorical use.

The word "rebirth" does not actually occur in authentic buddhist texts. Instead, there are numerous words, more than a dozen, which the translators translate as "rebirth" and "reborn", which shows the translators seem to be guessing.  All authentic buddhism can be understood as occurring in the here & now; including the suttas that people think are about rebirth.

Those suttas, which are only a literal few, which mentioned literal past lives, like Jataka stories, are not authentic. They are later additions, like the Jataka themselves.

 :listen:
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 01:38:53 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 02:17:19 pm »
Aw. Hundreds, even thousands of years of so-called Buddhist talk about rebirths and births in different realities and all it meant was new Western Social Identity Self Classification lol. It just took thousands of years for the West to come along and develop such a notion for all those thousands of years of dialogue regarding this idea to finally make sense. Cool.

Check this out, I'm rebirthing, I'm doing it again. Its funny that so many people were such dufuses that they couldn't think of a less misleading term than "re-birth" to describe "claiming a new identity during the day.

So who agrees with this idea? I am not suggesting I believe that people are reborn or not, I am only asking who here believes that rebirth means what VisuddhiRaptor says and that the thousands of years of Buddhist writings were wrong or meaning just this otherwise?

I get mocked and spit at by these people but I've extensively studied the ideas in popular Buddhism across the world and it isn't too common to hear among such accounts that this is the meaning of Re-Birth except from those colonized moderns sucking up to the Modern West.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 319
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 04:40:54 pm »
Aw. Hundreds, even thousands of years of so-called Buddhist talk about rebirths

For thousands of years, Buddhists, Christians & others engaged in war & murder. Since when did the masses understand religion?  :curtain:

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 514
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 05:57:35 pm »

Those suttas, which are only a literal few, which mentioned literal past lives, like Jataka stories, are not authentic. They are later additions, like the Jataka themselves.



and some other 100 later additions in the Suttas... and the base on the gain of liberation...
Quote
from DN2 Samaññaphala Sutta: The Fruits of the Contemplative Life

Recollection of Past Lives

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. Just as if a man were to go from his home village to another village, and then from that village to yet another village, and then from that village back to his home village. The thought would occur to him, 'I went from my home village to that village over there. There I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I went to that village over there, and there I stood in such a way, sat in such a way, talked in such a way, and remained silent in such a way. From that village I came back home.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. He recollects his manifold past lives... in their modes and details.

"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.

The Passing Away & Re-appearance of Beings

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. Just as if there were a tall building in the central square [of a town], and a man with good eyesight standing on top of it were to see people entering a house, leaving it, walking along the street, and sitting in the central square. The thought would occur to him, 'These people are entering a house, leaving it, walking along the streets, and sitting in the central square.' In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma...

"This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 319
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 06:00:32 pm »
the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes).
In your monkey-mind, you do not understand what this means!!  :lmfao:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 319
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 06:02:57 pm »
recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes).


 :teehee:

Quote
[Ven. Maha Kaccana:] "The property of form, householder, is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of form, it is said to be living at home. The property of feeling... perception... fabrication is the home of consciousness. When consciousness is in bondage through passion to the property of fabrication, it is said to be dwelling at home.

"And how does one not live at home? Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions with regard to the property of form: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home.

"Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of feeling... perception... fabrication...

"Any desire, passion, delight, craving, any attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases or obsessions with regard to the property of consciousness: these the Tathagata has abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore the Tathagata is said to be not dwelling at home.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.003.than.html

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 319
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 06:06:23 pm »
recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes).

Proper translation, which is not "lives"...  :teehee:

Quote
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

This is called, bhikkhus, a noble disciple who dismantles and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who scatters and does not amass; who extinguishes and does not kindle.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.79

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 319
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 06:11:24 pm »
These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

Yes, indeed, German man who was reborn as a monkey in Cambodia. The bad kamma you have made by misrepresenting the Buddha teachings will lead to hell (suffereing) because your wrong view still believes in 'self'.

SN 22.79 states recollecting past abodes means recollecting in the past when the mind foolishly & ignorantly clung to aggregates, including one single aggregrate, as 'self'.

But now you believe this means recollecting your past lives as a 'self', which is the view of Mara, as explained in SN 5.10.  :lmfao:

Quote
Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.023.than.html

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 319
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 06:18:08 pm »

and some other 100 later additions in the Suttas... and the base on the gain of liberation...


In Thailand there is the saying about blind animals: "The birds fly in the sky but do not see/discern the sky; the fish swim in the water but do not see/discern the water; the monkey lives in the tree in Cambodia but does not see/discern the tree".

About this, the Buddha said:  :eek:

Quote
64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.

66. Fools of little wit are enemies unto themselves as they move about doing evil deeds, the fruits of which are bitter.

67. Ill done is that action of doing which one repents later, and the fruit of which one, weeping, reaps with tears.

69. So long as an evil deed has not ripened, the fool thinks it as sweet as honey. But when the evil deed ripens, the fool comes to grief.

70. Month after month a fool may eat his food with the tip of a blade of grass, but he still is not worth a sixteenth part of the those who have comprehended the Truth.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.05.budd.html


Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 06:19:56 pm »
Aw. Hundreds, even thousands of years of so-called Buddhist talk about rebirths

For thousands of years, Buddhists, Christians & others engaged in war & murder. Since when did the masses understand religion?  :curtain:

I agree, but those people had certain beliefs and ideas which were called Buddhist or Christian ideas. Those people who were of whatever little understanding but their religion was based in faith, miracles, supernatural things, whatever else. They believed in salvation and an afterlife, even in helping powers and an ultimate power. That was their religion. That was also what they were interested in or hoping for, it was their impetus for doing good and avoiding evil or asking for forgiveness.

In their own ways they all thought that death was not the end but people who are good get good later and people who do bad get bad and can't escape via death and death is not the end.

That is religion, or popular religion pretty much everywhere in the world with only little theological or technical differences really or disputes.

That is religion usually. It is different from the following:

1. There is no power running through or causing or controlling things.

2. There is no immortality or afterlife, when you die you are dead and thats ir, your life deeds do not count towards any after-life results.

3. There is only this life and if you are troubled in this life or have a terrible or short time there is no real justice or savior or retribution or return or fixing.

4. There is no one to call upon for help, one just suffers through life as much as they might, maybe moderating it a bit with some acceptance of life being how it is, then dying or killing oneself, no judgment, so if one raped and murdered secretly they simply get away with it if they get away in life or through death.

This is the opposite of proto-typical human religions. It may be what the Historical Siddhartha Gautama taught, it may not be, but it isn't what tended to be believed or generally practiced or understood by most people, nor was it considered useful or beneficial at all to believe or promote such pointless seeming ideas which would corrupt any sense of justice or fear. Then being nice to people seems unecessary really, there is no consequence or reason to be nice, they die, we die, its meaningless how we lived or what we ate or who we hurt or not. This may be what Siddhartha Gautama taught or not, but it is not how Christianity or Buddhism were popularly understood or practiced for the most part.

The opposite was instead always the mainstream across the world for the most part:

1. There is an Ultimate Power running through and ordering, there is a system and a law and the Ultimate.

2. There is an afterlife and one does not escape life or experience via death.

3. There is more than this life and what is apparent to this body.

4. The calls for help are heard and prayers and there are responses and results at times.

Thus charity becomes worthwhile in the present as well as for the after-life, as was commonly understood by the typical majority or popular religious sentiments around the world among each religion, Christians and Buddhists alike.

Offline Spiny Norman

  • Member
  • Posts: 5057
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 01:59:55 am »
recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes).


Proper translation, which is not "lives"...  :teehee:



Prove it. 

Here is an alternative translation of SN 22.79:
"At Savatthi. "Monks, any brahmans or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.079.than.html

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 02:01:38 am »
Thank you Spiny Norman! This is a great use of your knowledge to help people to see that these types are very aggressively trying to white-wash all of Buddhism and history with their revisionism.

Haha, I've been calling them "crypto-Buddhists" on accident sometimes, because when asked they also don't identify themselves as Buddhists even which I guess is true as well, but then they like to pretend to Buddhists secretly anyway. So not the usual meaning that would be applied to "crypto-Buddhist" which would mean a secret practitioner.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:04:31 am by The Artis Magistra »

Offline Spiny Norman

  • Member
  • Posts: 5057
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: Rebirth
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 02:01:57 am »
the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes).
In your monkey-mind, you do not understand what this means!!  :lmfao:

Stop being so obnoxious and patronising to other members.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal