Author Topic: Rebirth  (Read 330 times)

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 02:11:13 am »
The guy hurt his girlfriend, now he hurts everyone else too. I don't know what can soothe a person who doesn't believe in any reason to be moral at all, that all their deeds are worthless, and that they will not have to face the consequences of their actions if they "get away with it".

Offline ground

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 02:20:45 am »
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The word 'rebirth' that occurs in authentic buddhist texts in the context of the birth of living beings is a metaphor because there is no directly perceptible basis for its non-metaphorical use.

The word "rebirth" does not actually occur in authentic buddhist texts. Instead, there are numerous words, more than a dozen, which the translators translate as "rebirth" and "reborn", which shows the translators seem to be guessing.  All authentic buddhism can be understood as occurring in the here & now; including the suttas that people think are about rebirth.

Those suttas, which are only a literal few, which mentioned literal past lives, like Jataka stories, are not authentic. They are later additions, like the Jataka themselves.

 :listen:

Fine if your non-rational analysis - which actually amount to mere assertions - comes to a result that complies with my rational analysis although your result is different from mine.
Why you are trying to ridicule my rational analysis however is not clear since my result complies with yours although being different from yours.

Obviously you are at odds with rationality and with anything that is different from your private views.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:25:05 am by ground »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 02:26:32 am »
Quote
The word 'rebirth' that occurs in authentic buddhist texts in the context of the birth of living beings is a metaphor because there is no directly perceptible basis for its non-metaphorical use.

The word "rebirth" does not actually occur in authentic buddhist texts. Instead, there are numerous words, more than a dozen, which the translators translate as "rebirth" and "reborn", which shows the translators seem to be guessing.  All authentic buddhism can be understood as occurring in the here & now; including the suttas that people think are about rebirth.

Those suttas, which are only a literal few, which mentioned literal past lives, like Jataka stories, are not authentic. They are later additions, like the Jataka themselves.

 :listen:

Fine if your non-rational analysis - which actually amount to mere assertions - comes to a result that complies with my rational analysis although your result is different from mine.
Why you are trying to ridicule my rational analysis however is not clear since my result complies with yours although being different from yours.

Obviously you are at odds with rationality and with anything that is different from your private views.

Your ideas may be rational, but why call them Buddhist? They do not seem to conform with the majority of Buddhist tradition and history for the past 2500 years, nor does anything VisuddhiRaptor says. Why do you Westerners tag along Buddhism with your New Rational Analysis? Just leave Buddhism out of it maybe? You'll save yourself a lot of trouble.

Offline ground

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 02:40:50 am »
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be validly known through having directly perceived a thing before its cessation and through directly perceiving its anew arising. Thus one can validly know 'This has existed before it ceased and now it has arisen again.' based on direct perception.


"Things" are not subject to rebirth because this would mean it is the same thing reborn.  :lmfao:

That is inappropriately expressed. Let's take an tree. When a tree ceases to exist and a new tree arises then - in the context of the metaphorical expression 'rebirth' used by me - it is a tree that is reborn not a car. So the same thing is reborn.
you are not distinguishing generality from particular. It is correct that it is not the particular tree that ceased to exist that is reborn but it is the same thing as generality that is reborn metaphorically.

But in the context of asserting non-metaphorical 'rebirth' of persons 'rebirth' does not refer to the generality of 'person' but to the particular person.

But all (conditioned) "things" are continual transformations & changings therefore "things" cannot be "reborn".  :smack:

What is rebirth is the process of selfing or identifying, which creates new ideas about 'self'.  :argue:

When are you going to give up these delusions about 'perception' & 'non-perception'.  :teehee:

Friend, you are lacking analytical capacity. The cause of that is that you are cultivating beliefs exclusively.

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"Monks, be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 02:43:46 am by ground »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 01:24:40 pm »
Prove it. 

Pretty dumb. Every translator knows "nivasa" does not mean "lives", which is why Bhikkhu Bodhi sometimes uses "abodes" & Thanissaro has included "homes". The word for "lives" is "jiva".

The word "nivasa", "nivesa", "vasa", is used in the suttas in many places to refer to mental states.

Please. The silliness from Spiny Norman. Start a thread on DW about these words.  :teehee:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 01:28:57 pm »
Why you are trying to ridicule my rational analysis however is not clear since my result complies with yours although being different from yours.
Why get paranoid about different views. I was merely challenging or offering perspective.  :teehee:

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Obviously you are at odds with rationality and with anything that is different from your private views.

My posts are completely rational & the knowable truth.  :namaste:

Are you declaring you believe in reincarnation, even though you believe there are no things?!  :lmfao:

Do you deny the mind gives "birth" to self-views?  :fu:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 01:37:36 pm »
That is inappropriately expressed. Let's take an tree. When a tree ceases to exist and a new tree arises then - in the context of the metaphorical expression 'rebirth' used by me - it is a tree that is reborn not a car. So the same thing is reborn.

It is a different tree reborn. The 1st tree was 10 metres tall and had 25 branches. The 2nd tree is 12 metres tall and has 36 branches. Then throughout the life of the "tree" its size, width and number of branches & leaves are in a constant state of flux & change.

It is not the same tree reborn. The tree is not subject to rebirth.  :curtain:

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you are not distinguishing generality from particular. It is correct that it is not the particular tree that ceased to exist that is reborn but it is the same thing as generality that is reborn metaphorically.

No. Rebirth is of process rather than things. The process is "selfing" or "becoming". This is all "birth" is.

The suttas literally define "birth" ("jati") as the production of the view of "beings" or "persons" or "selves".

This is the only birth & rebirth the suttas are concerned with. They are not concerned with trees.

Quote
But in the context of asserting non-metaphorical 'rebirth' of persons 'rebirth' does not refer to the generality of 'person' but to the particular person.

It refers to the perception or view of a "person".

You spend your time here posting about perception but now you wish to deny that a "person", "self" or "being" is merely a perception or label or idea or view.  :shrug: :smack:


Offline ground

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 10:45:56 pm »
That is inappropriately expressed. Let's take an tree. When a tree ceases to exist and a new tree arises then - in the context of the metaphorical expression 'rebirth' used by me - it is a tree that is reborn not a car. So the same thing is reborn.

It is a different tree reborn. The 1st tree was 10 metres tall and had 25 branches. The 2nd tree is 12 metres tall and has 36 branches. Then throughout the life of the "tree" its size, width and number of branches & leaves are in a constant state of flux & change.

It is not the same tree reborn. The tree is not subject to rebirth.  :curtain:
The point was: The same thing as generality arises again. A tree not a car. And that can be directly perceived. For this re-arising one may metaphorically use the expression 'rebirth'.
But those who assert rebirth of persons in the context of buddhism do not refer to a generality of person because that would be valid, since when one person dies another person is born. But they do refer to the same particular of person and that can neither be drectly perceived nor can a sign be directly perceived that could serve as reason for the inference of such a non-metaphorical rebirth.

Quote
you are not distinguishing generality from particular. It is correct that it is not the particular tree that ceased to exist that is reborn but it is the same thing as generality that is reborn metaphorically.

No. Rebirth is of process rather than things. The process is "selfing" or "becoming". This is all "birth" is.
I did not say that rebirth would be a thing but I said that rebirth is re-arising of what has previously existed. That re-arising of course is a process.

The suttas literally define "birth" ("jati") as the production of the view of "beings" or "persons" or "selves".

This is the only birth & rebirth the suttas are concerned with. They are not concerned with trees.
But then my illustration is valid. Why? Because the illustration 'tree' illustrates rebirth as re-arising as well as does 'view' .

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But in the context of asserting non-metaphorical 'rebirth' of persons 'rebirth' does not refer to the generality of 'person' but to the particular person.

It refers to the perception or view of a "person".
That is a generality of view too. Why? Because if a view has ceased and then it arises again it is never the same particular view. There are always slight differences in terms of concomitant factors.


You spend your time here posting about perception but now you wish to deny that a "person", "self" or "being" is merely a perception or label or idea or view.  :shrug: :smack:
I am putting buddhism on a basis of rationality and removing the basis of belief. Rationality is based on logical thinking and as Dharmakirti has stated:
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The success of all human aims is preceded by right cognition.

Right cognition is twofold: direct perception and inference.

This is valid for buddhism as it is valid for science!

So if your aim is a cessation there is no way other than direct perception and inference to sucessfully realize that aim.

As to person, self and being: these do exist and are functioning things. How do they exist? Through imputation only, i.e. they are empty of inherent existence. But that emptiness does not negate their being effects and causes.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:49:37 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 11:48:29 pm »
Ratio can perceiveable not perceive reallity, that is why the Buddha did not taught like a Dhammakri but the way to vipassana, to see birth and decay and the causes of this or that coming into being. Ratio of the wise is his friend to develop faith, ratio of the fool is his enemy because he is a believer, believing his intelect as real, self and trustworthy. And that is why the Buddha told his disciples, the own ideas are the lowers advisors.
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Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 01:32:24 am »
The suttas literally define "birth" ("jati") as the production of the view of "beings" or "persons" or "selves".


Here is how birth is actually defined in the suttas. 

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

And in dependent origination birth leads to aging and death:

"Now what is aging and death? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death."

Given these definitions, your claim that these are purely mental events is baseless and ill-informed.

Offline ground

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 03:49:22 am »
Ratio can perceiveable not perceive reallity, that is why the Buddha did not taught like a Dhammakri but the way to vipassana, to see birth and decay and the causes of this or that coming into being. Ratio of the wise is his friend to develop faith, ratio of the fool is his enemy because he is a believer, believing his intelect as real, self and trustworthy. And that is why the Buddha told his disciples, the own ideas are the lowers advisors.
you should not talk about something you don't know.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 04:00:58 am »
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ground:  "So the same thing is reborn.
you are not distinguishing generality from particular."


No.  We are never the same thing from mind moment to mind moment, nor from miosis to mitosis, nor from apoptosis, to apoptosis, nor from syngamy to  death.

cellular reproduction:  https://publications.nigms.nih.gov/insidethecell/chapter4.html

Mind:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

http://kadampa.org/reference/mind

https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/what-mind

https://www.google.com/search?q=understanding+the+human+mind&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi0nO_-wMzVAhUHWSYKHWNJA-8Q1QII0gEoBg&biw=1280&bih=630

Ironically, but in reality we are constantly reborn both mentally and physically every second of our existence, from syngamy till death:  http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Syngamy

« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 04:17:55 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline ground

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 04:09:44 am »
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ground:  "So the same thing is reborn.
you are not distinguishing generality from particular."

No.  We are never the same thing from mind moment to mind moment, nor from miosis to mitosis, nor from apoptosis, to apoptosis, nor from syngamy to  death.
Of course, you are and remain the thing called 'Ron'.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 04:24:39 am »
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ground:  "Of course, you are and remain the thing called 'Ron'."

The "thing" I am is a constantly changing process in both mind and body.  At the level considered by physics this process is even more impermanent and constantly changing.

Quantum Dynamics:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_dynamics
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Rebirth
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 04:26:30 am »
Ratio can perceiveable not perceive reallity, that is why the Buddha did not taught like a Dhammakri but the way to vipassana, to see birth and decay and the causes of this or that coming into being. Ratio of the wise is his friend to develop faith, ratio of the fool is his enemy because he is a believer, believing his intelect as real, self and trustworthy. And that is why the Buddha told his disciples, the own ideas are the lowers advisors.

you should not talk about something you don't know.


If so, yes, that would be a good advice one should always take by heart. There are ways to perceive thinks and also get relayable conformation. How is that with the idea "I will be dust after death" for example?

For the doubters, even materialist (incl. mental materialism).

Quote
Kalama-Sutta

"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires.

"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires.

"'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires.

"'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both ways.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires.

"One who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires these four assurances in the here-&-now.


But now get a teaching in modern materialism and how it's after the Dhamma. Maybe it helps to seek for ways of knowing and seeing.

It's good to see the body as the self to see impermanents for the untrained mind. The mind stuff has to many things to grasp for.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 04:31:40 am by Samana Johann »
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