Author Topic: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?  (Read 2568 times)

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 04:57:49 am »
It's more like different ways of describing the same ultimate reality, like the Buddha's parable of the blind men and the elephant.

So is sunyata the "ultimate reality" here? 

By the way I'm not a fan of phrases like "ultimate reality".  Is "ultimate reality" more real than plain old "reality"?  And what on earth does "reality" mean here?  Whose "reality" are we talking about?  An ant's "reality" would be different from a human's "reality" and different again from that of a space alien, and different again from that of beings in another realm or dimension, if such things exist. 

If by "ultimate reality" you mean everything in the universe, then from a human perspective we will only ever be aware of a small fraction of it.  About the rest we can only speculate.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 05:07:29 am by Spiny Norman »
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Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 05:56:35 am »
Hi, Spiny.  Always good to read your stuff:

On "reality".  It has been my experience that all forms of reality are pretty much local and very personal.  It is subject to perspective derived of both education and experience.  That, I believe, was Buddha's point in his advice to The elders of The Kalamas.

Take space-time for example, which is subject to the distortions (effects) of mass, such as that exerted by planets, stars, and black holes.  It is also subject to distortions (effects) from acceleration and velocity of the being experiencing and/or measuring it as is discussed in Einstein's General and  Special theories of Relativity:

https://www.space.com/17661-theory-general-relativity.html

From the perspective of education, experience and enlightenment there are those who are aware of reality from the mundane perspective of their daily environment.  Then there are those who are aware of reality based upon their education in the sciences of mathematics, chemistry, physics and biology.  Then there are those aware of reality on the basis of their personal experiences from having to deal with the world / environment from the perspective of being a child, an adult, a parent, a lender, a borrower, a beggar, and a giver.  Each of these life experiences ads a dimension of understanding not held by someone, who has never had the education, or experience, which each brings different lessons of the nature of reality.

Also, there is "motivation" to be considered.  The reality of the importance of sexuality experienced by an African elephant in musk is totally different than that of a thirty year old single mother, who has to work three jobs to support the results and demands of her four unwanted pregnancies.

Then there is "conditioning" and "training".  A highly conditioned athlete thinks highly of the cardio-vascular benefits of running five miles every morning before breakfast, whereas a two hundred and fifty pound couch potato would find the whole idea of even a quarter mile walk in the morning before work appalling.

As I said, all reality is local and personal.

Good to see you posting again, buddy.   :wink1:
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 06:05:06 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline ground

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 03:07:09 pm »
That's fine, but the Buddha's teachings still state (and I paraphrase) , Absolute Truth is emptiness and Relative Truth is everything else.

While some Mahayana philosophers taught that the ultimate truth is emptiness, others taught the ultimate truth is pure consciousness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Consciousnesses

Which shows that the expression 'ultimate truth' is only a conventional linguistic expression since its definition is dependent on the community of believers that provides it.
There is no 'ultimate truth' that is ultimately or absolutely true since what is called 'truth' is only true for the concealer ordinary consciousness.

It's more like different ways of describing the same ultimate reality, like the Buddha's parable of the blind men and the elephant.

your statement is based on your belief that a so called 'ultimate reality' exists but that the different communities of believers just can't see it because of being blind which is why they insist on their definition, i.e. fabrication.

But why should your belief outweigh the beliefs of others? your statement is just a variant of the pretentiousness common to all believers.

And your statement is based on beiefs of a similar nature - untested and not independantly verified.  You believe you are right and averyone else is wrong.  You believe you've attained somethin the rest of us are to clueless to see. 

Beliefs.  Just like everyone else's.

So why don't you quit ragging on people?

There is no belief you could be referring to with the expressions "your statement is based on beliefs" and "You believe". your strawman.  :fu:

Offline Chaz

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 03:23:23 pm »

So why don't you quit ragging on people?

There is no belief you could be referring to with the expressions "your statement is based on beliefs" and "You believe". your strawman.  :fu:

Of course you have beliefs.  Everyone does, and every statement you make on this board is based on them.

No strawman.

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2017, 01:28:38 am »
As I said, all reality is local and personal.
Good to see you posting again, buddy.   :wink1:


You too, Ron!

At the risk of going a bit off topic, it's worth noting that in the suttas the emphasis is very much on "our world", rather than on "the world", and the Buddha often advised against metaphysical speculation.

Here's one example:
"Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.045.than.html
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Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2017, 01:32:24 am »
Ultimate Truth is the common knowledge of the non-being, some call it soul, some call it paramatma.

Isn't sunyata Ultimate Truth in this context? 

Paramatma is a Hindu belief, not a Buddhist one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline ground

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2017, 08:10:59 pm »

So why don't you quit ragging on people?

There is no belief you could be referring to with the expressions "your statement is based on beliefs" and "You believe". your strawman.  :fu:

Of course you have beliefs.  Everyone does, and every statement you make on this board is based on them.

No strawman.

Perceiving emptiness directly it is impossible for belief to arise in mind. There is not even belief in emptiness.

'everyone does' necessarily refers  to ordinary consciousnesses. The world does because it is dominated by ordinary consciousnesses.  :fu:

Offline ground

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2017, 08:13:36 pm »
Ultimate Truth is the common knowledge of the non-being, some call it soul, some call it paramatma.

Isn't sunyata Ultimate Truth in this context? 

Paramatma is a Hindu belief, not a Buddhist one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman

Ultimate truth is what you want it to be. Ultimate truth has never existed as anything at all. 'Ultimate truth' is a conventional linguistic expression  empty of meaning from the outset.  :fu:

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2017, 01:11:02 am »
Ultimate Truth is the common knowledge of the non-being, some call it soul, some call it paramatma.

Isn't sunyata Ultimate Truth in this context? 

Paramatma is a Hindu belief, not a Buddhist one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman

Ultimate truth is what you want it to be. Ultimate truth has never existed as anything at all. 'Ultimate truth' is a conventional linguistic expression  empty of meaning from the outset.  :fu:

Meh.   :flush:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2017, 03:59:48 am »
Quote
solodris: ......... "Mastery in practice of devotional promise is the succession of failure after failure until it is delivered in the correct form.

Dr. Irwin Corey puts it most clearly:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxtN0xxzfsw
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Chaz

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2017, 05:46:51 am »
Ultimate Truth is the common knowledge of the non-being, some call it soul, some call it paramatma.

Isn't sunyata Ultimate Truth in this context? 

Paramatma is a Hindu belief, not a Buddhist one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramatman

Ultimate truth is what you want it to be. Ultimate truth has never existed as anything at all. 'Ultimate truth' is a conventional linguistic expression  empty of meaning from the outset.  :fu:

Meh.   :flush:
+1

Offline Chaz

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2017, 06:12:10 am »

So why don't you quit ragging on people?

There is no belief you could be referring to with the expressions "your statement is based on beliefs" and "You believe". your strawman.  :fu:

Of course you have beliefs.  Everyone does, and every statement you make on this board is based on them.

No strawman.

Perceiving emptiness directly it is impossible for belief to arise in mind. There is not even belief in emptiness.

'everyone does' necessarily refers  to ordinary consciousnesses. The world does because it is dominated by ordinary consciousnesses.  :fu:

Be that as it may, or may not be, my point is that you are constantly ragging on people about their "beliefs" as if you had none, that you have been liberated from them - an assertion which, in your case, is patently false.

You believe that assertion and that's ok.  You can believe whatever you like.  However to berate and belittle others for what you seem to percieve as a failing, one you share with us all, is the purist hyprocricy and you should stop that.

You also believe that you understand direct perception.  Again, this is fine.  This is something you should feel free to discuss and even promote, beause even though you're wrong about what it is, you have a right to be wrong, just don't get your knickers in a twist when you are challenged.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 06:51:52 am by IdleChater »

Offline Chaz

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2017, 03:23:47 pm »

So why don't you quit ragging on people?

There is no belief you could be referring to with the expressions "your statement is based on beliefs" and "You believe". your strawman.  :fu:

Of course you have beliefs.  Everyone does, and every statement you make on this board is based on them.

No strawman.

Perceiving emptiness directly it is impossible for belief to arise in mind. There is not even belief in emptiness.

'everyone does' necessarily refers  to ordinary consciousnesses. The world does because it is dominated by ordinary consciousnesses.  :fu:

Be that as it may, or may not be, my point is that you are constantly ragging on people about their "beliefs" as if you had none, that you have been liberated from them - an assertion which, in your case, is patently false.

You believe that assertion and that's ok.  You can believe whatever you like.  However to berate and belittle others for what you seem to percieve as a failing, one you share with us all, is the purist hyprocricy and you should stop that.

You also believe that you understand direct perception.  Again, this is fine.  This is something you should feel free to discuss and even promote, beause even though you're wrong about what it is, you have a right to be wrong, just don't get your knickers in a twist when you are challenged.

Forgive me, I was in recovery of the remnants of deep seated suffering.

WTF are you talking about?

Offline Chaz

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Re: Relative Truth vs. Ultimate Truth?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2017, 10:16:18 pm »

So why don't you quit ragging on people?

There is no belief you could be referring to with the expressions "your statement is based on beliefs" and "You believe". your strawman.  :fu:

Of course you have beliefs.  Everyone does, and every statement you make on this board is based on them.

No strawman.

Perceiving emptiness directly it is impossible for belief to arise in mind. There is not even belief in emptiness.

'everyone does' necessarily refers  to ordinary consciousnesses. The world does because it is dominated by ordinary consciousnesses.  :fu:

Be that as it may, or may not be, my point is that you are constantly ragging on people about their "beliefs" as if you had none, that you have been liberated from them - an assertion which, in your case, is patently false.

You believe that assertion and that's ok.  You can believe whatever you like.  However to berate and belittle others for what you seem to percieve as a failing, one you share with us all, is the purist hyprocricy and you should stop that.

You also believe that you understand direct perception.  Again, this is fine.  This is something you should feel free to discuss and even promote, beause even though you're wrong about what it is, you have a right to be wrong, just don't get your knickers in a twist when you are challenged.

Forgive me, I was in recovery of the remnants of deep seated suffering.

WTF are you talking about?

A misjudgement lead to an accident in becoming corrupted.

This is what all the commotion was about.

Why don't  you try that again, this time without the contrived pithiness.


 


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