Author Topic: Self- Ordination  (Read 11474 times)

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2012, 08:36:34 pm »
I am not sure if a self-ordination is quite a good step into Dharma, but for sure the self is responsible for such ideas.

The only strategy that is behind that strategy is the mind protecting it's ways to survive. Very western indeed.

It was always quite normal that aside of the tradition there have been not ordinated ascetics, but they did not have the idea of calling it ordination. They just walked their ways which they were able to.

Not everybody is able to give up own ideas for a community, but that is ok.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 08:39:57 pm by Hanzze »

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 05:36:17 am »
The self-vow or self ordination is outlined by Queen Śrimālā in the Śrimālā sūtra and a guide for it’s undertaking is found in the Brahma Net Sutra (Bonmõkyõ 梵 網 経). This is the Bodhisattva ordination. The idea of self-ordination in Japan dates back to the self-vow ordination of Prince Shõtoku (573-621), and performed by Empress Suiko the 33rd ruler of Japan and the first Buddhist monarch (reigned 554-628). Prince Shõtoku lectured twice on this text before the throne. On the second occasion the Empress Suiko stood up before the Buddha images and loudly repeated Queen Śrimālā’s vows as her own. This was the first example of the self-vow ordination ever practised in Japan and is recorded in the Kojiki (古事記 680 A.D.). Prince Shõtoku later followed her lead.  This tradition is universal and dharmic. In Tibet it is related to the mahasiddhas, who are superior practitioners to monastics. Also read the 84 mahasiddhas. In fact, the dependence on ecclesiastical authoritarianism and rules is exoteric and Western. It is a sign of decadence and degeneration.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2012, 01:13:30 pm »
In fact, the dependence on ecclesiastical authoritarianism and rules is exoteric and Western. It is a sign of decadence and degeneration.

I'm not a big fan of participating in large religious institutions myself, although I do see their value as well as their problems. However the idea that the Vinaya is somehow Western, decadent and degenerate doesn't hold up to historical analysis.

You could, however, say that they are 'exoteric' if you are using the term to mean, "intended for or likely to be understood by the general public: an exoteric, literal meaning and an esoteric, inner teaching.". So yes, they are meant to be understood literally, as in "no sex, no drinking, no killing, etc" as meaning exactly and literally what they say.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Hanzze

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2012, 09:45:52 pm »
The self-vow or self ordination is outlined by Queen Śrimālā in the Śrimālā sūtra and a guide for it’s undertaking is found in the Brahma Net Sutra (Bonmõkyõ 梵 網 経). This is the Bodhisattva ordination. The idea of self-ordination in Japan dates back to the self-vow ordination of Prince Shõtoku (573-621), and performed by Empress Suiko the 33rd ruler of Japan and the first Buddhist monarch (reigned 554-628). Prince Shõtoku lectured twice on this text before the throne. On the second occasion the Empress Suiko stood up before the Buddha images and loudly repeated Queen Śrimālā’s vows as her own. This was the first example of the self-vow ordination ever practised in Japan and is recorded in the Kojiki (古事記 680 A.D.). Prince Shõtoku later followed her lead.  This tradition is universal and dharmic. In Tibet it is related to the mahasiddhas, who are superior practitioners to monastics. Also read the 84 mahasiddhas. In fact, the dependence on ecclesiastical authoritarianism and rules is exoteric and Western. It is a sign of decadence and degeneration.

Maybe you should think if that was an intention of the Buddha or a selfish idea of somebody else later on. You know, such attitudes are not new as well as doubts are not new.
And sometimes there are not the right conditions, but its better to work on the conditions as to adopt the Dharma-vinaya to conditions which are not basic for it.

As said, its no problem if you wander alone if there is no one equal to your own virtue be found. If we should call that ordination... that could give much support to arrogance if the true intention is something different.

Quote
A Sense That Your Arm is Short

The Buddha's teachings are direct, straightforward, and simple, but hard for someone who's starting to practice them because his knowledge can't reach them. It's like a hole: People by the hundreds and thousands complain that the hole is deep because they can't reach to its bottom. There's hardly anybody who will say that the problem is that his arm is short.

The Buddha taught us to abandon evil of every kind. We skip over this part and go straight to making merit without abandoning evil. It's the same as saying the hole is deep. Those who say their arms are short are rare.


Of cause a Bodhisattva vow is always just personal vow, but ordination to the community of the Buddha is something different. One does not necessary conflicting the other, but a wrong vow a wrong understanding of compassion could hinder one to take part on the way Buddha told.

The only authority walking the Way of Vinaya is the Vinaya it self. If one has problem with authorities, well how could he even ordinate him self? To his personal ideas?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 09:56:01 pm by Hanzze »

Offline truemoves

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2012, 09:39:33 am »
If a person wishes to be a renunciant, follow a set of training rules, and strive to develop virtue, concentration and wisdom then no one is stopping them, it's what the Buddha himself did and had already been a practice in India for some time. Here in the west we don't have a recognizable practice like that. If you drop out you are seen as a crazy person. I hope we can change that.

If you are going to call yourself a self ordained Buddhist monk then other people may have a problem with it. Perhaps such an undertaking would make you a monk in many peoples eyes but for both good and bad reasons others may not approve.

To me the benefit of the robes and shaved head is that it shows the general public that you are up to something outside of societies regular activities. In a way, it gives one the ok to be different. If you beg for food in robes versus in street clothes the perception of some people will be drastically different. It's my understanding that many of the rules in the Vinaya were made by the Buddha for just that reason, to create harmony between the Monks and lay people by understanding and playing on their perceptions. Of the Monks I have spent time with, whom I all have great respect for, their robes give them more than the mark of a renunciant. They are doted on by lay people in regard to requisites. Though the Vinaya helps protect them from exploiting that, there is more room in the middle path for self led  renunciants, Buddhist or otherwise.
 
Many people in the west want to ordain and the type of infrastructure the Sangha is developing here just isn't able to accommodate. The Monasteries I have been to all over the world have been amazing places for practice, yet It can be hard to sift out the Asian culture and ritual  from the monastic culture.

Here in Canada I think its a good time for people to experiment with alternative ways of renunciation. The trail blazers may come off as cooky or crazy but they are doing something important in my eyes, misguided or otherwise.

Best wishes


Offline J. McKenna

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 10:14:47 am »
one can attempt to hug oneself   or  kiss oneself    or    ordain oneself     all are alike in being self centered acts that reinforce that which is not
 
ordained at birth as practicing human     graduation or promotion to come at death   no choice in either
...i found there was no "i" anywhere.....

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2012, 11:22:10 am »
Self-ordination is sutric. See the Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala and the Brahma Net Sutra. The Tathagatagarbha doctrine is a major doctrine of universal Buddhism. Several major traditions were founded by self-ordained practitioners. I would also cite the Buddha's comments about the significance of the robe in the Pali Canon. I am wondering if perhaps the problem is with the word "ordination." That is just an English word. Perhaps the problem is purely semantic.

Offline truemoves

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2012, 02:35:32 pm »
Self-ordination is sutric. See the Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala and the Brahma Net Sutra. The Tathagatagarbha doctrine is a major doctrine of universal Buddhism. Several major traditions were founded by self-ordained practitioners. I would also cite the Buddha's comments about the significance of the robe in the Pali Canon. I am wondering if perhaps the problem is with the word "ordination." That is just an English word. Perhaps the problem is purely semantic.

People have been renouncing worldly life and putting on ochre robes in India before Buddha was born, many of which were not ordained in any organization, including the Buddha. They wouldn't be called  self ordained, they just started living that lifestyle and wearing rag robes.

Buddha set up a Vinaya governed order as he went along and it was constantly changing. Many traditions no longer have a direct lineage so their ordinations are probably not seen as valid by those who do. Having said that , just because someone is ordained with a far reaching lineage , doesn't give them a monopoly on the Dhamma or renunciation. It does give them exclusive rights to ordination within that lineage. Many people are self centred, ordained and otherwise. If you believe the Buddhas most basic teachings then we are all deluded until we are enlightened so we shouldn't insult each other. We should try to understand and find ways to support right practice. The strictest traditions will not ordain women because of their devotion and respect for Vinaya. The Buddha is said to have been asked what the Sangha should do regarding the rules when he died and I think his answer was intentionally vague in order that Dhamma could  unfold in various ways for future generations, to give its seeds more opportunity to grow. He is said to have told them to keep the major rules and gave them permission to drop the lesser rules. However there were more than two classes of rules so in the confusion the first split of the Sangha happened. Mahayana has since proliferated the most since they chose to drop some of the Vinaya. And the Theravadins have kept the core teachings and traditions alive for thousands of years. We are so lucky to have such a broad expression of his teaching. Many great teachers have come and gone in various traditions including non Buddhist ones. It is for each one of us to determine our own path and find our way to relieve suffering and we can look for practical, compassionate ways to support each other even if our paths are not identical.

If someone wants to call themselves self ordained in a lineage that practised self ordination then It sounds kosher to me. But some people are going to have a problem with it to be sure. Such is life! Problematic.  :anjali:



Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2012, 03:25:49 pm »
Quote
Its long been said that there should be Mahayana ordination vows rather the following the Srvakayana model of ordination, Doesnt make much sense considering that the goals are different.


the Ten Mahayana Precepts are practically a digest of the Vinaya. I only had to revise them slightly to incorporate the entire Vinaya precepts into them, getting rid of the silly ones like not sitting in a chair on a floor with a missing plank - very sensible perhaps, but hardly a precondition of realization.

Offline J. McKenna

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2012, 03:26:20 pm »
irrelevant are all    ordinations     robes        titles         traditions lineages          doctrines    words   semantics
 
 
 
 
relevance is itself irrelevant
...i found there was no "i" anywhere.....

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2012, 03:50:53 pm »
What is relevant?

Offline J. McKenna

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2012, 04:45:49 pm »
irrelevance
...i found there was no "i" anywhere.....

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2012, 05:11:27 pm »
Sounds like nihilism.

Offline truemoves

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2012, 06:56:12 pm »
This thread may be relevant or irrelevant, it may be both relevant and irrelevant or it could be neither relevant nor irrelevant.

Regardless it is a thread about self ordination.

Mahasiddha Bodhisattva, to what comment regarding the significance of the robes in the Pali Canon are you referring to?

Best

 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:58:06 pm by truemoves, Reason: spelling »

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Self- Ordination
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2012, 09:22:50 am »
Quote
Mahasiddha Bodhisattva, to what comment regarding the significance of the robes in the Pali Canon are you referring to?


Here is the a famous passage from the Dhammapada, Chapter 1:

9.   Whoever is impure without self-control and truthfulness, not worthy of the pure yellow robe that he wears. (9)

10.   Whoever is pure, well established in morals and endowed with self -control and truthfulness, is worthy of the pure yellow robe that he wears. (10)



 


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