Author Topic: suicide  (Read 2281 times)

Offline tomaquar

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suicide
« on: June 19, 2013, 03:54:28 pm »
I was recently involved in a discussion about suicide and wanted to get some other view points. There are times when (IMO) suicide is Karmically skilled like when the Vietnamese monks self immolated in protest of the war. But what happens when a person commits suicide to escape suffering ? Do they simply defer the karmic cost they could have paid by continuing the suffering or do they acquire new karmic debt by the killing ?

Personal opinions are certainly welcome but please note whether your input is based on personal experience or if its based on a text or teaching.

Thanks

Offline ground

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Re: suicide
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 07:17:12 pm »
... There are times when (IMO) suicide is Karmically skilled like when the Vietnamese monks self immolated in protest of the war.
Nonsense. What should be skillled as to self immolation due to not being able to stand perception of war?

But what happens when a person commits suicide to escape suffering ?
May be the end of suffering. May be not. Who knows?


Personal opinions are certainly welcome but please note whether your input is based on personal experience or if its based on a text or teaching
No experience with suicide so far.  :fu:

Offline former monk john

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Re: suicide
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 07:21:51 pm »
My impression is that suicide makes things worse in the future life, as instead of resolveing your problems in this life you've put them off till another life.
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 07:27:52 pm »
Very enlightening Ground, thank you for expanding the conversation.

Offline Optimus Prime

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Re: suicide
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 07:29:13 pm »
Consider the mind state of a person when they are just about to fall asleep:
- If they fall asleep with an unwholesome mind state - they will likely have an unfitful sleep and bad dreams
- If they fall asleep with a wholesome mind state - they will likely have a fitful sleep and good dreams

Now consider the mind state of a person just about to commit suicide - is it wholesome or unwholesome?  If there is a next life, then similar principles may apply to how wholesome or unwholesome their next life will be.

Offline Optimus Prime

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Re: suicide
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 07:32:04 pm »
I refer you to my post in the other suicide thread where Ajahn Amaro talks about how suicide is not painless - it's quite detailed:
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/beginner%27s-buddhism/assisted-suicide/
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 07:33:48 pm by Optimus Prime »

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 07:41:06 pm »
Thank you optimus. That looks like an informative post.

Ground , please go away.

Offline ground

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Re: suicide
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 07:51:00 pm »
Ground , please go away.
tomaquar, please practice. To want someone away is the first step in direction of killing.

The truth expressed in latest post about the suttapitaka and suicide has been deleted by "big brother" anyway. So you can be sure that only agreeable and edifying posts survive. Others are killed (since posts don't commit suicide) :fu:

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 08:00:33 pm »
There is an evidence from the sutra, that killing your own self will not give a problem as long as you have reached minimum arhat state, because once you reach that state, you are already beyond birth and death.

The Pali sutra for this is in the case of Godhika. Another one is Channa.

When we truly experience the unborn and undeath, suicide is actually not a valid word anymore.

This is also the case for high bodhisattvas who has completed the realization of emptiness and bodhicitta. If they give their body to the tiger for example to save that dying tiger, and the tiger eat him, he will dead. And will you say he is doing suicide?

One is killed by knife purposely. One is killed by tiger purposely. So, it is more or less same. You lead yourself being killed.

But, there is a difference in term of effect whether when you do it you have realize no birth, no death.

For those who just ordinary beings, suicide is very harmful for them because they destroy their chance to train. As it is very rare to find this opportunity anymore.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:04:43 pm by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2013, 08:08:03 pm »
Thank you Blue Sky, I had not considered the loss of opportunity to practice dharma .

Offline Monkey Mind

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Re: suicide
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 08:09:02 pm »
Thank you, BlueSky, for the academic diligence that was missing in the previous [now deleted] post. I think for the purposes of this discussion, we have to admit that the two sutta references to arahants who committed suicide are 1) substantially different than people who have not achieved arahantship; 2) discrepant from the many sutta references that suicide is unwholesome with serious kammic consequences.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 09:40:16 pm by Monkey Mind, Reason: change words for clarity »

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 08:11:29 pm »
Monkey mind, is it your opinion that suicide  generates detrimental karma ?

Offline ground

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Re: suicide
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 08:12:54 pm »
...that the two sutta references to arahants who committed suicide are 1) substantially different than people who have not achieved arahantship; 2) discrepant from the many sutta references that suicide is unwholesome with serious kammic consequences.
It is said that they achieved arhatship upon committing suicide. It is not said that they first have achieved arhatship some time before and then commit suicide.

But why would a never returner commit suicide due to illness?

 :fu:
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:14:52 pm by ground »

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 08:17:29 pm »
...that the two sutta references to arahants who committed suicide are 1) substantially different than people who have not achieved arahantship; 2) discrepant from the many sutta references that suicide is unwholesome with serious kammic consequences.
It is said that they achieved arhatship upon committing suicide. It is not said that they first have achieved arhatship some time before and then commit suicide.
 :fu:

That is impossible.

You cannot reach arhat by killing yourself.

You must realize the unborn first. Because if not, your fear of losing your self, will become the main source for your attachment, and this is the main reason you will have the astral body in the body, where this astral body form due to the power of your mind. On that basis, that astral body will become your basis for I, and you will surely go to the next rebirth.

Only unless, within a split second you can realize unborn in that bardo, rebirth cycle is impossible.

And for those who do not realize unborn BY EXPERIENCE during their life time, that chance is practically impossible.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline ground

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Re: suicide
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 08:20:07 pm »
...that the two sutta references to arahants who committed suicide are 1) substantially different than people who have not achieved arahantship; 2) discrepant from the many sutta references that suicide is unwholesome with serious kammic consequences.
It is said that they achieved arhatship upon committing suicide. It is not said that they first have achieved arhatship some time before and then commit suicide.
 :fu:

That is impossible.

You cannot reach arhat by killing yourself.
It was reference to sutta, not reference to ideas "you" or "I".  :fu:

 


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