Author Topic: suicide  (Read 2287 times)

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 08:20:34 pm »
Blue sky, may I ask which form of Buddhism you practice ?

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 08:20:57 pm »
Thank you, BlueSky, for the academic diligence that was missing in the previous post. I think for the purposes of this discussion, we have to admit that the two sutta references to arahants who committed suicide are 1) substantially different than people who have not achieved arahantship; 2) discrepant from the many sutta references that suicide is unwholesome with serious kammic consequences.

Yes, we have to separate the case.

Because for arhat and ordinary beings, it is completely different story.

It is like if you are willing to give your kidney, after your kidney is given, you won't feel any issue.

But, if your kidney is stolen, and you don't want to give it, you will feel extreme anguish.

Same thing, same event, no kidney, but your realization turn the whole table upside down.

Realization of unborn turn the whole perspective of suicide upside down.

So, we cannot generalize the case.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2013, 08:22:32 pm »
...that the two sutta references to arahants who committed suicide are 1) substantially different than people who have not achieved arahantship; 2) discrepant from the many sutta references that suicide is unwholesome with serious kammic consequences.
It is said that they achieved arhatship upon committing suicide. It is not said that they first have achieved arhatship some time before and then commit suicide.
 :fu:

That is impossible.

You cannot reach arhat by killing yourself.
It was reference to sutta, not reference to ideas "you" or "I".  :fu:

THen you shall be able to show that sutta to the public.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:24:48 pm by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2013, 08:23:54 pm »
Blue sky, may I ask which form of Buddhism you practice ?

I follow all.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline Optimus Prime

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Re: suicide
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2013, 08:24:05 pm »
In the The Brahma Net Sutra, which outlines the precepts that Bodhisattvas follow, the Buddha is extremely clear that we should not get involved in the causes, conditions, methods or karma of killing.  It goes through a list, one by one of types of killing that we shouldn't be doing.

This is the first Major precept of Bodhisattvas - so it is the most important one.  Notice, it is extremely clear that we should be discouraging others to kill.  We should NOT be praising killing either.  We shouldn't even be rejoicing at watching killing happening.  Instead, we should be trying to rescue and protect life.

Quote
1. First Major Precept On Killing

A disciple of the Buddha shall not himself kill, encourage others to kill, kill by expedient means, praise killing, rejoice at witnessing killing, or kill through incantation or deviant mantras. He must not create the causes, conditions, methods, or karma of killing, and shall not intentionally kill any living creature.

As a Buddha's disciple, he ought to nurture a mind of compassion and filial piety, always devising expedient means to rescue and protect all beings. If instead, he fails to restrain himself and kills sentient beings without mercy, he commits a Parajika (major) offense.

Source:  http://www2.fodian.net/world/1484.html


So these are the precepts, the standards that enlightened beings hold themselves accountable towards.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:28:28 pm by Optimus Prime »

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2013, 08:25:35 pm »
I ask because I was wondering how the term Bardo is seen in other systems. I have only seen it in Tibetan teaching.

Offline ground

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Re: suicide
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2013, 08:28:07 pm »
SN 22.87

But be warned. Most Thervada sites have this sutta censored. Best you take Bikkhu Bodhi's translation of SN.  :fu:

Other example is SN4.23  :fu:

« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:39:51 pm by ground »

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2013, 08:31:53 pm »
I ask because I was wondering how the term Bardo is seen in other systems. I have only seen it in Tibetan teaching.

This term is seen anywhere actually, only it is not obvious.

The meaning of bardo is a period between two event.

This life cycle can be divided into 6 periods:
The period of life
The period of sleep
THe period of meditation
THe period of the time approaching death.
The period of the time after death.
The period of the time approaching rebirth.

In Theravada, the main emphasize is in the period of life, sleep, and meditation.

But for the period approaching death, after death, and approacing rebirth, the explanation is very very minimum. And from my knowledge, there is no method how to reach enlightenment during these 3 last periods.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2013, 08:41:41 pm »
Blue sky, are you familiar with Tulku Thondup ? I believe he suggests that in the Bardo one can achieve enlightenment if they are able to keep their mind stable during the turmoil.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2013, 08:42:34 pm »
SN 22.87

But be warned. Most Thervada sites have this sutta censored. Best you take Bikkhu Bodhi's translation of SN.  :fu:

Other example is SN4.23  :fu:

THat Sn 22.87 doesn't show any statement of you kill yourself, and after killing you realize arhat. Same with 4.23.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline BlueSky

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Re: suicide
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2013, 08:48:54 pm »
Blue sky, are you familiar with Tulku Thondup ? I believe he suggests that in the Bardo one can achieve enlightenment if they are able to keep their mind stable during the turmoil.

I am not familiar with him, but the teaching is very common within Vajrayana.

During this life, even you realize unborn, you still have this body that cage you. But, in bardo of death, everything is immaterial. And if you can stay at that nonduality, everything is instaneous, within a split second.

Just like it is said that now if you think about paris, you must take flight. Your mind doesn't need flight to reach Paris, but your body needs.

Same thing in the bardo of death, if your mind think about paris, you will be instaneously there. You don't need an aeroplane anymore, because you don't have that material body anymore.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline Monkey Mind

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Re: suicide
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2013, 09:47:28 pm »
I want to talk about ethics for a moment. FreeSangha is a forum for discussion about Buddhism; many of our visitors are beginners.
1) For monks and nuns, if they encourage someone to commit suicide, this is an offense against their code of ethics that can result in being banned from the monastic Sangha.
2) Searching within the Pali tradition, within a few minutes I found over two dozen suttas that spoke out against suicide. I am not as experienced with searches in other traditions, but searching Chinese sutras I had a similar outcome.
----------------------------------------------------
3) Two sutta references about Godhika and Channa do not seem to apply to this discussion, because they were arahants. Scholars have debated the meaning of these suttas for centuries, I don't think anyone with a popcorn understanding of Buddhism is prepared to take on the task of understanding these references.
4) I personally lack adequate training to understand the Vietnamese monks who engaged in self-immolation. However, I do know this: if you watch the videos of those acts (and I strongly discourage anyone from doing that), the monks do not even flinch while their bodies are burning. I cannot imagine the level of samadhi required to face such intense pain without reaction. So again, I do not think those actions apply to this discussion, I doubt many people on the Earth today are capable of such a feat.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 09:50:04 pm by Monkey Mind »

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2013, 10:12:01 pm »
Thanks for the input Monkey mind. I was originally wondering whether suicide makes new detrimental karma of if avoiding current suffering just pushes the karmic debt into the next incarnation. The comment about suicide wasting practice opportunity makes sense. It seems like wasting practice time would make it more difficult to find another practice opportunity.

Offline Optimus Prime

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Re: suicide
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2013, 10:29:49 pm »
I was originally wondering whether suicide makes new detrimental karma of if avoiding current suffering just pushes the karmic debt into the next incarnation.
Yes and yes.

Offline former monk john

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Re: suicide
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2013, 10:35:47 pm »
I hope to "god" you're not thinking about suicide and if you are get some professional help, Are you suffering from depression or is this just a rhetorical question??
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

 


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