Author Topic: suicide  (Read 2148 times)

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2013, 10:48:03 pm »
Thank you for the concern John but it is purely rhetorical. Someone had said "suicide is always a 'sin'". I said I thought there were exceptions like the monks I mentioned. I was looking for a text that might speak to the topic. The Shantideva/tiger thing is way to dense.

Offline former monk john

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Re: suicide
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2013, 11:13:22 pm »
That's a relief, we don't want to do anything to encourage suicide, or fail to help someone contemplating suicide.
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline tomaquar

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Re: suicide
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2013, 11:19:37 pm »
Sorry for any confusion. Based on your reply and Monkey mind's Im guessing there is some history of discussions I didn't know about.

Offline former monk john

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Re: suicide
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2013, 11:45:58 pm »
Well its been my experience that a good percent of the time when someone brings up the topic of suicide, they are at least vaguely considering it, so I wanted to make sure we were doing the right thing, monkey mind too, I'm sure.

I have manic depressive illness that for many sufferers can lead to thoughts of suicide, attempts and even death, its the most horrible result of my illness, fortunately I'm part of almost a minority that are not plagued by those thoughts, and I consider myself blessed that I've never attempted suicide and only considered it briefly in my youth, when my illness was much worse.

Consider if a delusional person who thought they were an arahat came on to this forum and asked the same question, they could actually be dead by now, this is not the sort of topic to joke around about, and bring up obsure, almost unreal, practically unexplainable situations from scripture.
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline pudgala2

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Re: suicide
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2013, 12:16:47 pm »
First it was Zen or suicide
Then it was Zen and suicide
Finally it was Zen is suicide
Cutting off the suffering self

NW—Zen—the end of time
Compassion

     
pudgala2
 

Poetic justice—deserving to be the karmic character you habitually practice being—until YOU stop it.


Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: suicide
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2013, 01:13:46 pm »
Well its been my experience that a good percent of the time when someone brings up the topic of suicide, they are at least vaguely considering it, so I wanted to make sure we were doing the right thing, monkey mind too, I'm sure.

I have manic depressive illness that for many sufferers can lead to thoughts of suicide, attempts and even death, its the most horrible result of my illness, fortunately I'm part of almost a minority that are not plagued by those thoughts, and I consider myself blessed that I've never attempted suicide and only considered it briefly in my youth, when my illness was much worse.

Consider if a delusional person who thought they were an arahat came on to this forum and asked the same question, they could actually be dead by now, this is not the sort of topic to joke around about, and bring up obsure, almost unreal, practically unexplainable situations from scripture.

anytime you have any bad thoughts chant this mantra and focus on it .

     namu maha parinirvana svaha

Offline ground

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Re: suicide
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2013, 08:37:49 pm »
I want to talk about ethics for a moment.
That is good. However it raises the question why certain posts have been deleted if ethics is a topic of openminded discussion.

Specific suttas are being censored on buddhist websites. Let's regards this to be caused by fear that suttas may lead to conclusions detrimental for health and life, a fact which certainly is not according to preferred public image of religion but which cannot be neglected by openminded investigation.

3) Two sutta references about Godhika and Channa do not seem to apply to this discussion, because they were arahants. Scholars have debated the meaning of these suttas for centuries, I don't think anyone with a popcorn understanding of Buddhism is prepared to take on the task of understanding these references.
Neither Sn 22.87 nor SN 4.23 referred to above refer to persons named Godhika or Channa .

As to your "because they were arahants" in the context of persons Godhika and Channa:
If what is traditionallly said about arahants is true, why would an arhant commit suicide? Or is the idea "arahant" a completely exaggerated idea(l) as it is characteristic for religious idea(l)s? Just think of flying lamas in other buddhist traditions.


 :fu:
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 08:51:38 pm by ground »

Offline Hanzze

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Re: suicide
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2013, 03:14:04 am »
I was recently involved in a discussion about suicide and wanted to get some other view points. There are times when (IMO) suicide is Karmically skilled like when the Vietnamese monks self immolated in protest of the war. But what happens when a person commits suicide to escape suffering ? Do they simply defer the karmic cost they could have paid by continuing the suffering or do they acquire new karmic debt by the killing ?

Personal opinions are certainly welcome but please note whether your input is based on personal experience or if its based on a text or teaching.

Thanks

Hopefully you are able to overcome your philosophical irritations. I just like to tell you that wise would not be expressed if you scarify your self. That is a significant sign of total delusion and outstanding selfishness.

Maybe you like to "Get the message"

Offline daimond

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Re: suicide
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2013, 04:44:41 am »
if you friend tried help them to stay a life regular people who think suiced are in weak or unstable phase, in worst condition there add in the stiuation some blast emotion from other who could made push trigger suiced.




Offline Hanzze

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Re: suicide
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2013, 04:57:48 am »
Sure and they will even say "...you are guilty that I am a fool!" or "you brought me to make my foolish selfish decision" or "Even it is silly I seek refuge in my stupid-ness" and as long as he get's some attention or maybe the hope that somebody would praise him later on, there are all door open for self-expressions in the hope that foolishness could be conquered by further foolishness.

Of cause such is only possible for believers in nihilism or materialism, since they believe that after on might be an end. Like the child quitting the school rather then to put some effort into learning and practicing.

Offline Transition

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Re: suicide
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2013, 03:03:30 pm »
I am an administrator of a pro-life, suicide prevention forum, so I deal with these issues everyday...I think one has to take into account the state of someone's mind and the quality of the health care services available when making such judgments...the great majority of the members are in severe pain...if the pain could be relieved, I feel most would not contemplate such an action...I wish more practitioners would volunteer their time to assisting these members

Offline Will

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Re: suicide
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2013, 03:31:18 pm »
Thank you optimus. That looks like an informative post.

Ground , please go away.

On the lower right of every post is an Ignore button - very useful at times.

Peter Harvey has an entire chapter on suicide in his Introduction to Buddhist Ethics.  This is a snip from that chapter:

Quote
One of the three forms of craving is craving for annihilation (vibhava
tanha): to get rid of unpleasant situations. Where one’s whole life-situation
is perceived to be so unbearable that one says ‘no!’ to it, it may
culminate in suicide. However, as it is craving which impels one through
the round of rebirths, the state of mind which prompts suicide will be a
crucial cause of yet another rebirth, along with its problems. So as an
attempted escape from the sufferings of life, suicide is, according to
Buddhist principles, totally ineffective. It will only be followed by a
further rebirth, probably lower than a human one, in which the
sufferings will probably continue unabated – if due to karma – and
perhaps be intensified. As dying in an agitated state of mind is seen as
leading to a bad transition into the next life, suicide is seen as
likely to lead to a bad rebirth next time. In the Tibetan tradition, the consciousness
of one who commits suicide is seen as anguished and weighed
down with negative karma, so as to need rituals to aid it.

That craving for annihilation was taught by Buddha in his very first sutta.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 05:16:40 pm by Skull »
The bodhi resolve is like empty space, this because its marvelous qualities are boundlessly vast.  Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 39

Offline Optimus Prime

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Re: suicide
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2013, 05:07:42 pm »
Peter Harvey has an entire chapter on suicide in his Introduction to Buddhist Ethics.  This is a snip from that chapter:

Quote
One of the three forms of craving is craving for annihilation (vibhavatan
tanha): to get rid of unpleasant situations. Where one’s whole life-situation
is perceived to be so unbearable that one says ‘no!’ to it, it may
culminate in suicide. However, as it is craving which impels one through
the round of rebirths, the state of mind which prompts suicide will be a
crucial cause of yet another rebirth, along with its problems. So as an
attempted escape from the sufferings of life, suicide is, according to
Buddhist principles, totally ineffective. It will only be followed by a
further rebirth, probably lower than a human one, in which the
sufferings will probably continue unabated – if due to karma – and
perhaps be intensified. As dying in an agitated state of mind is seen as
leading to a bad transition into the next life, suicide is seen as
likely to lead to a bad rebirth next time. In the Tibetan tradition, the consciousness
of one who commits suicide is seen as anguished and weighed
down with negative karma, so as to need rituals to aid it.

That craving for annihilation was taught by Buddha in his very first sutta.

Excellent post, Skull.

In the 4 Noble Truths, the 2nd Noble Truth outlines that the cause of suffering is desire/craving, which can be divided into 3 types:
1.  Desire to get (bhava tanha) - usually trying to get more of pleasant things
2.  Desire to get rid of (vibhava tanha) - usually trying to get rid or get away from unpleasant things
3.  Desire for sense pleasure (kama tanha)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 05:14:46 pm by Optimus Prime »

Offline ground

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Re: suicide
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2013, 08:35:01 pm »
I am an administrator of a pro-life, suicide prevention forum, ...
So you better advise people to stay away from the sutta pitaka.  :fu:

Offline Solodris

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Re: suicide
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2017, 09:06:30 am »
What if the very essence of the being's natural rebirth is eternally committing suicide?

I almost succeded twice about one week ago if only I would have tied the knots correctly. Maybe next time letting go of a nearby bridge will complete the natural rebirth.

 


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