Author Topic: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation  (Read 439 times)

Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2017, 12:19:01 am »
So in the themeless there are neither alleged properties nor alleged property-pocessors. That is why sometimes it is also translated as objectless.
No signs that could be mistaken as inhering properties and no signs that could be mistaken as arising or subsistence. That is called 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness'.

Now how can this be the prerequisite for liberation as stated above?

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1. Liberation cannot be attained without cessation of perception (i.e. experience of the original and natural emptiness of perceptions of mind) which - since imputation is the nature of perception - is cessation of all kinds of imputations, be they conceptual or intuitive.

In MN121 where it is the result of effortful meditation and the result of acceptance and rejection it is recognized thus:
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"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released ...

Now in dzogchen it is completely different since this lucid emptiness is not the result of effortful meditation and acceptance and rejection but reveals itself spontaneously in the context of direct introduction. Therefore in dzogchen this lucid emptiness can be validly known as the underlying ground of all perceptions, the ground which arises in and as all phenomena when the diversity of perceptions arises again. Knowing thus the duality of 'samsara vs nivana' has ceased.
That is why in dzogchen it is essential to not rely on meditation practices at all. Having perfected the view of dzogchen one can enter 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness' at will. Why? Because perceptions and their source, lucid emptiness, are simultaneously present and the perceptible is the appearance of lucid emptiness.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:27:56 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2017, 01:45:01 am »
To repeat the decisive point in the sutta:

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"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way ... obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."

"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"

"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

...  the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance.


I.e. what is called the dimension of 'neither perception nor non-perception' is the best of all phenomena that can be clung to. There can be no better.

Since 'neither perception nor non-perception' is not 'perception' it is a similitude of 'cessation of perception'.

So in this sense to attain 'neither perception nor non-perception' is a worthwhile goal since it is the best of all sustenances.


Why is 'neither perception nor non-perception' only a similitude of 'cessation of perception'?

Because there still is the grasping at it:

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There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html



So liberation is attained through 'neither perception nor non-perception' AND at the same time not clinging to the equanimity of cessation of perception:

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There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way ... obtains [the] equanimity [of of neither perception nor non-perception]. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."


But there still is the possibility that what results is still clung to and thus is not liberation as MN 121 still adds another stage which is cessation of perception as far as cessation of perception can reach and is called 'theme-less concentration' which however still is characterized by
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His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

... i.e. there is still 'clinging to' and thus there still is no liberation.

Actually this 'theme-less concentration' can only be distinguished from 'neither perception nor non-perception' based on its characteristic of 'no grasping at 'neither perception nor non-perception'' and thus this 'theme-less concentration' has to be as  'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach by definition.
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"Further, Ananda, the monk — ... not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness.


So is this 'theme-less concentration' the same as 'cessation of perception'? yes, it has to be set as 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body by definition:
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There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.


Therefore the 'emptiness' MN 121 is referring to is 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body:
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Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.


If clinging even to this emptiness of perceptions ceases there is liberation:
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"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



What's the message of all this?

1. Liberation cannot be attained without cessation of perception (i.e. experience of the original and natural emptiness of perceptions of mind) which - since imputation is the nature of perception - is cessation of all kinds of imputations, be they conceptual or intuitive.

2. Liberation is not the same as cessation of perception.

3. If there is clinging to this cessation of perception after having experienced it then liberation is not attained.

4. All perceptions necessarily arise from the original and natural emptiness [of perceptions] of mind that can be experienced first hand through cessation of perception.


Sadhu!

Question: Would it be correct to say (in short, missing some chains): "By direct perceiving that even this dwelling is conditioned, one is freed of desire for becoming, released."?

Secound, and importand, like just theory here: how to gain, what's the way to come there an see for one self?
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2017, 02:00:15 pm »
Sadhu!

Question: Would it be correct to say (in short, missing some chains): "By direct perceiving that even this dwelling is conditioned, one is freed of desire for becoming, released."?
That 'this dwelling' is conditioned is an inference, not a direct perception. It is an inference from the directly perceptible fact that you cannot have a permanent cessation of perception when the body is alive.
Being freed of desire for becoming is a natural consequence of seeing perception as a natural expression of life and thus seeing the perceived as empty of inherent existence.

Secound, and importand, like just theory here: how to gain, what's the way to come there an see for one self?
To see for oneself is to spontaneously 'see' (metaphor)  lucid emptiness.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2017, 04:53:33 pm »
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Ground: Being freed of desire for becoming is a natural consequence of seeing perception as a natural expression of life.


(the «even» (also) in the sentence befor... and the "in short, missing some chains", had reasons)

Sure? Here again the danger of becoming (not only pure materialist while training) and nonpercepting-being (asaññasatta) after break up of the body, is not abound "the cosmos" first.

You teaching before was to avoid to become just a "nevasaññanasaññayatanupaga deva" (therefor Sadhu was expressed) but my person "fears" there is still groundling somewhere under the 1. four jhanas or even exclusively in the sphere of "the world"

nevasaññanasaññayatanupaga can be a gross sañña of one who did not penetrate the gross first and dwells in householderequanimity.

Having trained in that way for a good while in the internet-realm for my self in that way, perceived directly it's ways, out come and danger, my person urges to do not oversee the danger, not over-estimate one self.

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To see for oneself is to spontaneously 'see' (metaphor)  lucid emptiness.

Thats no answer but perception playing. "How to learn, what to train to see? See." That if even understanding, haven seen, is a comment of one not able to explain the path.

Maybe Ground likes to explain about the undesired "asaññasatta" and how such can happen.

Purely de-objectification , apapanca is a form of Nihilism, actually a modern popular form of gross ignorance taken as releasing knowing and seeing. It has not penedrated the five sense and it's objects but sees the sixth, intelect as the "All"

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Despite the abstract format of this discourse, it deals with an emotional topic: the source of emotions, the use of the emotions in the course of the practice, and the ideal emotional state of a person who has completed the path and is fit to teach others. In particular, this discourse counters a common misperception: that the distress that comes from having an unachieved goal is an obstacle in the practice, and that the antidote for that distress is to renounce any sense of goals. In actuality, that distress — termed "renunciation distress" — has an important role in the practice: to overcome the distress that comes with a sense of loss over sensual pleasures that have not been attained, or those that have been attained in the past but now no longer exist. Renunciation distress serves as a reminder that the loss of sensual pleasures is not a serious matter. As for renunciation distress, it is overcome, not by abandoning any sense of goal, but by following the path and realizing the joy that comes when the goal is reached.

This discourse counters another misperception as well: that equanimity is the goal of the practice. In actuality, renunciation equanimity serves a function as part of the path of practice — as a tool for letting go of renunciation joy — and then it, too, is transcended by the state called "non-fashioning" (atammayata), in which there is no act of intention, not even the intention underlying equanimity, at all.

Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Six Sense-media
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 05:21:50 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 01:47:01 am »
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Ground: Being freed of desire for becoming is a natural consequence of seeing perception as a natural expression of life.

(the «even» (also) in the sentence befor... and the "in short, missing some chains", had reasons)

Sure?
yes, my linguistic expression has been appropriately selected given the context.

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To see for oneself is to spontaneously 'see' (metaphor)  lucid emptiness.
Thats no answer but perception playing. "How to learn, what to train to see? See." That if even understanding, haven seen, is a comment of one not able to explain the path.

Maybe Ground likes to explain about the undesired "asaññasatta" and how such can happen.
It is simply a mode of consciousness. It is no 'being'. Desire, form and formless realm are just metaphors for modes of consciousness. What is called 'rebirth in lower realms' after having attained the status of a 'being' in the form or formless is just metaphorical 'rebirth' of ordinary perception. Liberation however is to overcome ordinary perception through insight. So the solution is not the formless but the formless may be a stepping stone for liberation if discernment, i.e. rational analysis,  prevails, see MN121.
However what I called 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness' in the context of dzogchen is beyond even the formless since it reveals itself spontaneously and does not have any frame of reference like meditation. But even this 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness' of dzogchen is not liberation but it is the prerequisite for liberation which is overcoming of ordinary perception in the context of dzogchen view.

How to avoid getting caught up in and attached to modes of consciousness?
1. Do not meditate at all. Meditation is totally inappropriate.
2. Rely on discernment, i.e. rational analysis, exclusively.

Purely de-objectification , apapanca is a form of Nihilism, actually a modern popular form of gross ignorance taken as releasing knowing and seeing. It has not penedrated the five sense and it's objects but sees the sixth, intelect as the "All"
From your beliefers' perspective I certainly hold a nihilist view. Why? Because I reject beliefs and advocate valid knowledge.

As to goals: Our goals are not the same. They cannot be the same since you believe and I don't.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 02:13:26 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 02:45:36 am »
For a "Not-believer" Ground assumes a lot... especially perceptions of other, while at the same time rejecting the possibility.

How ever, great that he found a little ground outside perception-playings in the middle part.

Nevertheless, since clinging to perception-fascination, Ground like always did not answered the question.

Go on with playing with the intellect, might be that nessesary spontaneously arises and Sadhu for the effort to give certain things a try.
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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2017, 02:46:32 am »
A dizzying array of utter nonsense.

Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 03:32:39 am »
For a "Not-believer" Ground assumes a lot... especially perceptions of other, while at the same time rejecting the possibility.

How ever, great that he found a little ground outside perception-playings in the middle part.

Nevertheless, since clinging to perception-fascination, Ground like always did not answered the question.

Go on with playing with the intellect, might be that nessesary spontaneously arises and Sadhu for the effort to give certain things a try.

your English is so bad that I rarely can synthesize a consistent meaning when seeing your words.

As to belief: belief generally is imputation of truth to objects of one's mind which include perceptions. Since I do perceive all objects as empty of true existence they cannot appear as truths to my mind and therefore it is impossible for me to believe anything.
Direct perception of emptiness is liberation from belief. One does not even believe in emptiness since it is empty of true existence too.

For you who believes in truth it is best to take my words as a potential inspiration similar to a drawing.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 03:39:14 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2017, 07:51:34 am »
True?
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2017, 02:08:11 pm »

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2017, 03:41:24 pm »
For a "Not-believer" Ground assumes a lot... especially perceptions of other, while at the same time rejecting the possibility.

How ever, great that he found a little ground outside perception-playings in the middle part.

Nevertheless, since clinging to perception-fascination, Ground like always did not answered the question.

Go on with playing with the intellect, might be that nessesary spontaneously arises and Sadhu for the effort to give certain things a try.

your English is so bad that I rarely can synthesize a consistent meaning when seeing your words.

I must agree.

Hanzee,

For all the good you're trying to do, it's overwhelmed by how poorly you write English.  I'm perplexed by this.  Most people raised in Northern Europe in the last 60 years were taught English.  There are times when what you right approaches lucidty, but most of the time it's words strung together almost at random.

In addition, you won't write of yourself, or to others directly.

I suspect a pathology t work.  Either that or a very elaborate troll.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2017, 06:25:12 pm »
This matter, that to be no excuses for failures of my person, has especially in regard of perception and in regard of intent, willingness and capability (e.g. freedom of greed and aversion, kusala intent), it's throughout good use. If searching for usual satisfaction there is no danger that someone wast to much time in trying to take on it. If with an akusala mind hearing, reading pleasant, nicca seeming things, you take on them, hold them for through and follow blind beleaving. For it's not direct perceived. So there is certain need to leave levels and states of consciousness. Can you see true it, Emptiness de-weller s?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 06:37:36 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2017, 12:51:27 am »
This matter, that to be no excuses for failures of my person, has especially in regard of perception and in regard of intent, willingness and capability (e.g. freedom of greed and aversion, kusala intent), it's throughout good use. If searching for usual satisfaction there is no danger that someone wast to much time in trying to take on it. If with an akusala mind hearing, reading pleasant, nicca seeming things, you take on them, hold them for through and follow blind beleaving. For it's not direct perceived. So there is certain need to leave levels and states of consciousness. Can you see true it, Emptiness de-weller s?
What?  :lmfao:

you should better switch to German so that at least people who speak German may make use of your words.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2017, 02:43:36 am »
Seems that empty greed has arosen, green as Ground vibes, of course just Atmas perception even not much touched. It's not a language "problem", practical perceived in three languages, even without formal.

How could wirklich und wahr possible be good translated? What's the "deeper" conventional different (aside common use)? Of course German actually would be a better language for Dhamma-discussions, since more 'deep-walk' and not so common nailed.
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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2017, 05:35:06 am »
Seems that empty greed has arosen, green as Ground vibes, of course just Atmas perception even not much touched. It's not a language "problem", practical perceived in three languages, even without formal.

How could wirklich und wahr possible be good translated? What's the "deeper" conventional different (aside common use)? Of course German actually would be a better language for Dhamma-discussions, since more 'deep-walk' and not so common nailed.

What's important to the present discussion is how YOU translate it.

Your translations are so bad it's almost as if you do this on purpose.  IOW you're trolling.

 


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