Author Topic: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation  (Read 441 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2017, 05:51:52 am »
Oh, you seek arguments why food is not tasty. "He sure likes to hurt or kill". If feeling better with arguments that cause Idealtalk compassion (eg. greed) arising in this circumstances: "luckily" given small table and "sadly" big fingers, slow 56kb connection, if, energy "troubles" - quick on save - "better not perfect then lost", no spell-checker..., weather, lot of creeping, biting ... co-dwelles, hurting eyes, malaria-attacks, sickness, lack of power, not really learned languages and ignorant to it, especially before having given up taking what is not given (incl. knowledge), no dictionaries... a beggar, no problem when "rich" laugh or find it annoying, verbal beat and not a little up to gain ever acceptance, not speaking about above. Take, reject, make out of bad some good, out of good excellent... or the opposite, ones issue, choice. Better, greedy, touched, or even more annoyed?

If liking to get sure about one virtues and circumstances, its needed to live near/next, and observe long time, discerning when not knowing, having walked in certain shoes (eg non). For both there are no restrictions. Nothing to hidde and no reasons to put makeup on or seek other ways for trade.

Like to go further into the op- topic or is following what was assumed as stalking more pleasant?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 06:11:29 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2017, 07:07:07 am »
MN121 carries no indication that not penetrating rupa fist (eg "cosmos") is not the most potential danger and that mistaking any "lower" jhana, equanimity, with the higher and end up as no-perception being (counsciousness), if even that far and not groundling totally on the ground, mistaking it as earth-conceive/perception.

No meditation (eg. Concentration): it's nonsens that such is not needed. Ground, if a little mindful, reflective, knows well that to talk and appear in the way he does needs a lot of concentration and mindfulness and that it easily collapse into green vibration. (e.g. still very conditioned)

The training he does is a good one and gives much, but as sad, if the base, the ground lacks, very dangerous.

A good actor has such skill, but even so it's easy to end up as simply crazy.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 07:24:02 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2017, 08:45:59 pm »
...
No meditation (eg. Concentration): it's nonsens that such is not needed. ...

Of course in so called 'lower vehicles' meditation is needed. What are 'lower vehicles'? 'lower vehicles' are condioned views based on ordinary mind and its ordinary perceptions. The practice described in MN121 is an instance of 'lower vehicle'.
However rational analysis into the meaning of MN121 may reveal that the meditations decribed therein are nonsense because even the buddha recognizes those to be nonsense and is liberated thus:
Quote
"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
But still ordinary mind may not be content that even the buddha declares meditations to be nonsense and still speculate about something to be achieved by means of meditations. So it will be hard for ordinary mind to get the main meaning of MN121 if it is totally unfamiliar with preliminary conceptual dzogchen view.
So ordinary mind that is unfamiliar with preliminary conceptual dzogchen view will have to take the effortful route described in MN121 to experience first hand the nature of perception and non-perception.
However ordinary mind that is familiar with preliminary conceptual dzogchen view may be - but not necessarily is - directly introduced to the ground empty of perceptions depending on a complex set of conditions.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:09:01 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2017, 09:18:31 pm »
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception, either vehicle is. Aside of the fact that Ground seems to have perceptional problems with deeper meanings of conventional terms, e.g. not fit to discuss.
To be able to excange on convention it requires to start in an "equal" sphere of perception and as maybe a-greed, higher meditations/concentrations/jhanas do not allow dhamma to be conventional expressed or received. So pointless your guidingless undertaking to guide, factual and wahr/true. The try behind "the all"

"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): that's the point, why the Buddha was able to count and discribe each singe branch passing when falling from a tree, here seems the *peng* only perception (if even) assume that no branch was passed, even that have been fallen from a tree. (sensual desire abounding nessesary first) So it looks more as if one stucks between branches high above the ground.

Saw nice tables yesterday, maybe of use, for those not seeking to join sticking between branches, having a perceptional ground in maintaining.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 09:43:30 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2017, 11:25:46 pm »
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception,
In the context of buddhism it is valid because there are buddhist traditions that use this distinction. One can directly perceive these words in authentic buddhist texts, therefore their use is valid.
In the context of liberation of course one sees that there isn't any vehicle that leads to where one hasn't been already before. Why? Because liberation has been present from the outset.


...
"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): ...
No, that should not be confused. I called it '"complex set of conditions" because I cannot know it generally, i.e. for all individuals. I validly know it for myself however and this knowledge does not affirm what traditions and buddhist texts say about the prerequisites for successful direct introduction to the ground of being. E.g. nearly all traditions say that a so called 'teacher' or 'master' is required who directly introduces but I cannot affirm this. Why? Because in my case it happened spontaneously when reading a text.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 11:33:04 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2017, 12:08:04 am »
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception,

In the context of buddhism it is valid because there are buddhist traditions that use this distinction. One can directly perceive these words in authentic buddhist texts, therefore their use is valid.

Maybe in (a context labeled as) Buddhism (from some), in regard of Buddha an his teaching, see your better statement beloe, since Buddha gave things generally in contex of liberation, and so neither vehicles nor low or high, as if divided.
In the context of liberation of course one sees that there isn't any vehicle that leads to where one hasn't been already before. Why? Because liberation has been present from the outset.
Nibbana is aleays there, yes. So the way if explained.

...
"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): ...

No, that should not be confused. I called it '"complex set of conditions" because I cannot know it generally, i.e. for all individuals. I validly know it for myself however and this knowledge does not affirm what traditions and buddhist texts say about the prerequisites for successful direct introduction to the ground of being. E.g. nearly all traditions say that a so called 'teacher' or 'master' is required who directly introduces but I cannot affirm this. Why? Because in my case it happened spontaneously when reading a text.
Nobody says generally, there are paccecabuddhas yes, and saying "had no teacher" after having been treaded years from them and their generosity, even descriped here shows fine that this was not even sotapanna, liberation by listening hearing, since such a person knows well right view, about gifts and sacrify, mother and father, those gone right... So absolutly over estimation.
It's right that there is no Noble being needed for gaining paths, but to hear, read the true Dhamma while having proper attention. As for path enter for stages, or last, my person is well on Grounds side, that one can meditate for eons without success, but path is reached by verbal contact (incl. Signs, of course) [Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation

Mudita for Grounds possible reach of Stapanna, if, anyway. Now it's up to straighten views and reach for fruit, since just waiting till death till rupa gets clear as well, would be a terrible waste. So it's good to seek proper assosiation.

Certain imperfections are still present for a sotapanna, like some of those here actual (recognising them possible accurate here in this case), whereas doubt with the Dhamma makes certain doubt that a path to right liberation is gained:

Quote
sātheyyaṁ – bragging and boasting about oneself having better qualities than we have
thambho – hard-heartedness and stubborn obstinacy when others teach us, encouraging and explaining things to us correctly
sārambho – to not accept or follow – to take issue and become argumentative in various ways – when others explain things correctly according to Dhamma
māno – arrogance, thinking 'us', 'them', 'me', 'myself'
atimāno – pride, overly disparaging other people
mado – intoxication and delusion with regard to the body which is deteriorating through aging every day, insisting that one is still a young man or woman, heedless; deluded in the body which is constantly getting sick and needing to take medicine – that is, food and drink – every morning and evening, insisting that we have no disease, living healthy and at ease, heedless; and deluded in life which is uncertain, quickly snuffed out like a lantern having been lit out in a clearing, insisting that we won't yet die, heedless.


On a Maha-Moha-Mayayana (incledible great delude illusion vehicle), such perceptions like Ground might stick on are called maya, illusion, if remembering right, and usually frog-pills are admistert, or to watch the dance with proper attention:



« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 12:48:02 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2017, 10:53:34 pm »
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception,

In the context of buddhism it is valid because there are buddhist traditions that use this distinction. One can directly perceive these words in authentic buddhist texts, therefore their use is valid.

Maybe in (a context labeled as) Buddhism (from some), in regard of Buddha an his teaching, see your better statement beloe, since Buddha gave things generally in contex of liberation, and so neither vehicles nor low or high, as if divided.
In the context of liberation of course one sees that there isn't any vehicle that leads to where one hasn't been already before. Why? Because liberation has been present from the outset.
Nibbana is aleays there, yes. So the way if explained.

...
"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): ...

No, that should not be confused. I called it '"complex set of conditions" because I cannot know it generally, i.e. for all individuals. I validly know it for myself however and this knowledge does not affirm what traditions and buddhist texts say about the prerequisites for successful direct introduction to the ground of being. E.g. nearly all traditions say that a so called 'teacher' or 'master' is required who directly introduces but I cannot affirm this. Why? Because in my case it happened spontaneously when reading a text.
Nobody says generally, there are paccecabuddhas yes, and saying "had no teacher" after having been treaded years from them and their generosity, even descriped here shows fine that this was not even sotapanna, liberation by listening hearing, since such a person knows well right view, about gifts and sacrify, mother and father, those gone right... So absolutly over estimation.
It's right that there is no Noble being needed for gaining paths, but to hear, read the true Dhamma while having proper attention. As for path enter for stages, or last, my person is well on Grounds side, that one can meditate for eons without success, but path is reached by verbal contact (incl. Signs, of course) [Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation

Mudita for Grounds possible reach of Stapanna, if, anyway. Now it's up to straighten views and reach for fruit, since just waiting till death till rupa gets clear as well, would be a terrible waste. So it's good to seek proper assosiation.

Certain imperfections are still present for a sotapanna, like some of those here actual (recognising them possible accurate here in this case), whereas doubt with the Dhamma makes certain doubt that a path to right liberation is gained:

Quote
sātheyyaṁ – bragging and boasting about oneself having better qualities than we have
thambho – hard-heartedness and stubborn obstinacy when others teach us, encouraging and explaining things to us correctly
sārambho – to not accept or follow – to take issue and become argumentative in various ways – when others explain things correctly according to Dhamma
māno – arrogance, thinking 'us', 'them', 'me', 'myself'
atimāno – pride, overly disparaging other people
mado – intoxication and delusion with regard to the body which is deteriorating through aging every day, insisting that one is still a young man or woman, heedless; deluded in the body which is constantly getting sick and needing to take medicine – that is, food and drink – every morning and evening, insisting that we have no disease, living healthy and at ease, heedless; and deluded in life which is uncertain, quickly snuffed out like a lantern having been lit out in a clearing, insisting that we won't yet die, heedless.


On a Maha-Moha-Mayayana (incledible great delude illusion vehicle), such perceptions like Ground might stick on are called maya, illusion, if remembering right, and usually frog-pills are admistert, or to watch the dance with proper attention:




you shouldn't always make so many words. All your ideas arise from the ground of non-perception which is lucid emptiness and this emptiness is empty of any meaning. So all meanings your ordinary mind fabricates are just the display of this ground.
How could true meaning arise from what is meaningless from the outset? Cessation of perception isn't a depressive meaninglessness, it is empty emptiness which is lucid since it is the ground of conscious being. Sometimes it is even a blissful meaninglessness.
It shimmers through in between thoughts and intuitions. It cannot be removed through making many words. It is always spontaneously present. Lucid emptiness, the potentially blissful meaninglessness of everything and nothing.

Nevertheless meanings and perceptions continue to arise ceaselessly because that's the nature of the ground. But the ground knowing itself they are liberated spontaneously.

Now I have made many words myself.  :teehee: Forget them all. My words are not important. There're just natural expression of basic meaninglessness.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 11:11:50 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2017, 11:27:29 pm »
Really? How comes?

Maybe our world fist living householder-arahat may explain how things like such come into being, even do not decay, next the refrigerator. This basic meaninglessness.
*empty of basic meaninglessness, he decides empty to walk to the shop, so to stay a field of merits for those who trade...*
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 11:34:52 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2017, 05:19:31 am »
Really? How comes?

Maybe our world fist living householder-arahat may explain how things like such come into being, even do not decay, next the refrigerator. This basic meaninglessness.
*empty of basic meaninglessness, he decides empty to walk to the shop, so to stay a field of merits for those who trade...*
Hey bro, you may call me 'refrigerated arahat'   :fu:

 


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