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A Mosaic of Traditions - One Virtual Sangha => The Dharma Express => Topic started by: ground on August 11, 2017, 11:09:29 pm

Title: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 11, 2017, 11:09:29 pm
Emptiness is emptiness of independent existence, i.e. existence only through the imputation which is the nature of perception

.....

Conducive to the Imperturbable (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.106.than.html)

He discerns the emptiness of sensuality and attains the imperturbable of form:
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"In that case, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come: both are Mara's realm, Mara's domain, Mara's bait, Mara's range. They lead to these evil, unskillful mental states: greed, ill will, & contentiousness. They arise for the obstruction of a disciple of the noble ones here in training. What if I — overpowering the world [of the five senses] and having determined my mind — were to dwell with an awareness that was abundant & enlarged? Having done so, these evil, unskillful mental states — greed, ill will, & contentiousness — would not come into being. With their abandoning, my mind would become unlimited, immeasurable, & well developed.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the imperturbable[1] now or else is committed to discernment.


If the latter then he discerns the emptiness of form and attains the formless imperturbable:
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"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come: both are inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is not worth relishing, is not worth welcoming, is not worth remaining fastened to." Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the imperturbable now or else is committed to discernment.


If the latter then he discerns the emptiness of the formless imperturbable and attains nothingness:
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"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of nothingness.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment.


If the latter then he discerns the emptiness of nothingness and attains neither perception nor non-perception:
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"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception now or else is committed to discernment.


If the latter then he is totally unbound by the equanimity of neither perception nor non-perception if even that is not taken as a home ('homelessness') ...
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There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."



... and not taken as 'this' or 'that' ...
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"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'


... which amounts to there being neither meditation nor non-meditation.

Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on August 12, 2017, 12:24:38 am
Do Ground like Tibetan music?
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 24, 2017, 10:16:43 pm
To repeat the decisive point in the sutta:

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"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way ... obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."

"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"

"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

...  the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance.


I.e. what is called the dimension of 'neither perception nor non-perception' is the best of all phenomena that can be clung to. There can be no better.

Since 'neither perception nor non-perception' is not 'perception' it is a similitude of 'cessation of perception'.

So in this sense to attain 'neither perception nor non-perception' is a worthwhile goal since it is the best of all sustenances.


Why is 'neither perception nor non-perception' only a similitude of 'cessation of perception'?

Because there still is the grasping at it:

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There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.'

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url])



So liberation is attained through 'neither perception nor non-perception' AND at the same time not clinging to the equanimity of cessation of perception:

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There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way ... obtains [the] equanimity [of of neither perception nor non-perception]. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."


But there still is the possibility that what results is still clung to and thus is not liberation as MN 121 still adds another stage which is cessation of perception as far as cessation of perception can reach and is called 'theme-less concentration' which however still is characterized by
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His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

... i.e. there is still 'clinging to' and thus there still is no liberation.

Actually this 'theme-less concentration' can only be distinguished from 'neither perception nor non-perception' based on its characteristic of 'no grasping at 'neither perception nor non-perception'' and thus this 'theme-less concentration' has to be as  'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach by definition.
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"Further, Ananda, the monk — ... not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness.


So is this 'theme-less concentration' the same as 'cessation of perception'? yes, it has to be set as 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body by definition:
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There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.


Therefore the 'emptiness' MN 121 is referring to is 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body:
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Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.


If clinging even to this emptiness of perceptions ceases there is liberation:
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"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



What's the message of all this?

1. Liberation cannot be attained without cessation of perception (i.e. experience of the original and natural emptiness of perceptions of mind) which - since imputation is the nature of perception - is cessation of all kinds of imputations, be they conceptual or intuitive.

2. Liberation is not the same as cessation of perception.

3. If there is clinging to this cessation of perception after having experienced it then liberation is not attained.

4. All perceptions necessarily arise from the original and natural emptiness [of perceptions] of mind that can be experienced first hand through cessation of perception.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ZenFred on August 25, 2017, 08:05:30 am
Ground,

  Thanks for the explanation. Our conversation in other threads makes more sense now.
  I assume you've studied the heart sutra? It has simmilar themes.

  As I said earlier when I paraphrased the Christian theologian Paul Tillich saying God doesn't "exist" I appreciate that "God" is not this and not that.

  Experienced thru cessation of perception is an interesting phrase. Is by achieving, as Zen would say, no mind?  Though "achieving" is still grasping. The zen patriarchs talked about polishing the mirror of the self to which the more zen reply is there is no need for polishing, nothing to polish.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 25, 2017, 02:34:38 pm
  Experienced thru cessation of perception is an interesting phrase. Is by achieving, as Zen would say, no mind?  Though "achieving" is still grasping. The zen patriarchs talked about polishing the mirror of the self to which the more zen reply is there is no need for polishing, nothing to polish.
In zen speech: Seeing Dharma is seeing no dharna. (note capital D vs d). That is cessation of perception.
This cessation is accompanied by pristine atemporal awareness (-> Seeing Dharma).
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 25, 2017, 10:51:12 pm
Emptiness is emptiness of independent existence, i.e. existence only through the imputation which is the nature of perception...

Emptiness is emptiness of 'self', which is an imputation of 'view' ('ditthi') rather than a 'perception' ('sanna'). 'Sanna' does not impute 'self' because there is no 'self' to perceive. Instead, sankhara aggregate creates or imputes the view of 'self'.

I really don't see the point of studying the Pali suttas if the definitions of Mahayana cannot be abandoned & are clung to tenaciously.

In Pali Buddhism, perception is not an inherent problem.  :namaste:

Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 25, 2017, 11:03:26 pm
he is totally unbound by the equanimity :lmfao: of neither perception nor non-perception if even that is not taken as a home ('homelessness') ... 
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There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

the mind is totally unbound by not clinging to equanimity (rather than by equanimity). This is what the sutta literally states.  :namaste:
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 25, 2017, 11:06:11 pm
Do Ground like Tibetan music?

Maybe the only good post I have read Samana make. Saddhu.  :jinsyx:

Ground, trying to read Pali suttas, with brainwashed Tibetan music singing in the brain cells.  :teehee:
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 26, 2017, 12:03:25 am
I.e. what is called the dimension of 'neither perception nor non-perception' is the best of all phenomena that can be clung to. There can be no better.
It might be better than clinging to dog shit but it is still clinging or bondage.

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Since 'neither perception nor non-perception' is not 'perception' it is a similitude of 'cessation of perception'.
No. The 8th jhana is not a similitude of 'cessation of perception'. Perception only completely ends in the 9th jhana (nirodha samapatti), which is a state of unconsciousness, as described in MN 43. Therefore, there cannot be any conscious experience of the cessation of perception.

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So in this sense to attain 'neither perception nor non-perception' is a worthwhile goal since it is the best of all sustenances.
It might be better than dog-shit but it is actually not part of the eightfold path.

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Why is 'neither perception nor non-perception' only a similitude of 'cessation of perception'. Because there still is the grasping at it:

No. The Buddha entered this state (eg. before parinibbana in DN 16). Here, there was no clinging to it.

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There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.'
No. Be careful with MN 121 because it uses the word emptiness in a different way; in a literal way.

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So liberation is attained through 'neither perception nor non-perception' AND at the same time not clinging to the equanimity of cessation of perception:

No. The 8th jhana is not part of the noble path. The Susima Sutta makes it clear the formless absorptions (5th to 8th jhana) are not required for liberation. The suttas say the Buddha reached liberation using the 4th jhana. The 8th jhana is natural samadhi development but is unnecessary or excessive.

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There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way ... obtains [the] equanimity [of of neither perception nor non-perception]. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."
Yes. Unbound by non-clinging; similar to unbound by not clinging to dog shit.

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But there still is the possibility that what results is still clung to and thus is not liberation as MN 121 still adds another stage which is cessation of perception as far as cessation of perception can reach and is called 'theme-less concentration' which however still is characterized by

Themeless is still not the foremost liberation. Refer to end of MN 43. Sunnata is the foremost liberation, empty of greed, hatred & delusion.

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His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.
... i.e. there is still 'clinging to' and thus there still is no liberation.

Correct.  :namaste:

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Actually this 'theme-less concentration' can only be distinguished from 'neither perception nor non-perception' based on its characteristic of 'no grasping at 'neither perception nor non-perception'' and thus this 'theme-less concentration' has to be as  'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach by definition.

No. The themeless occurs as literally written in the sutta: "not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception".

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So is this 'theme-less concentration' the same as 'cessation of perception'?

No.  :no:

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Passion is a making of themes. Aversion is a making of themes. Delusion is a making of themes. MN 43
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yes, it has to be set as 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body by definition:

No.  :no: Cessation of perception is nirodha samapatti or the unconscious 9th jhana. The body is alive but the mind stops functioning.

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There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.

Therefore the 'emptiness' MN 121 is referring to is 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body:

No. "Body" is "kaya", which refers to five aggregates. This paragraph means when the five aggregates are empty of sensuality, becoming & ignorance, that is the unsurpassed emptiness.

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If clinging even to this emptiness of perceptions ceases there is liberation:

No. MN 121 clearly states emptiness is a perception:  :teehee: :listen: :smack:

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He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance.   :lmfao:  :teehee: :D

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"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

 :namaste:


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What's the message of all this?

1. Liberation cannot be attained without cessation of perception (i.e. experience of the original and natural emptiness of perceptions of mind) which - since imputation is the nature of perception - is cessation of all kinds of imputations, be they conceptual or intuitive.

No.

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2. Liberation is not the same as cessation of perception.

Yes.


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3. If there is clinging to this cessation of perception after having experienced it then liberation is not attained.

Non-sequitur.

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4. All perceptions necessarily arise from the original and natural emptiness [of perceptions] of mind that can be experienced first hand through cessation of perception.

No. When perception ceases, consciousness ceases. There cannot be an experience of the cessation of perception. Cessation of perception & feeling is merely something inferred when the mind emerges from the unconsciousness of the 9th jhana.

 :brick:
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 26, 2017, 02:59:50 pm
Themes or signs (nimitta) are defined in many suttas to be ideas such as 'beautiful'. Any ideas about the quality of something is a 'theme'; even the idea 'this is peaceful'. Such themes are 'sankhara' rather 'perceptions' ('sanna') in Pali. 'Sanna' is very basic differentiation, which all arahants have, such as:

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And why, bhikkhus, do you call it perception? ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception. And what does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception. SN 22.79

When Mahayana refers to "imputing", from a Pali perspective, this "imputing" is "sankhara" (fabricating views) and not "sanna" (perception).

 :namaste:
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 27, 2017, 09:02:48 pm
Emptiness is emptiness of independent existence, i.e. existence only through the imputation which is the nature of perception...

Emptiness is emptiness of 'self', which is an imputation of 'view' ('ditthi') rather than a 'perception' ('sanna'). 'Sanna' does not impute 'self' because there is no 'self' to perceive. Instead, sankhara aggregate creates or imputes the view of 'self'.

I really don't see the point of studying the Pali suttas if the definitions of Mahayana cannot be abandoned & are clung to tenaciously.

In Pali Buddhism, perception is not an inherent problem.  :namaste:

Nothing is a problem. But anything may cause problems if not appropriately understood.

That perception involves already an intuitive conditioned imputation is essential because without that imputation no object arises and when no object arises perception has ceased.

Cessation of perception is nothing but cessation of imputation, both intuitive and conceptual. What people most often overlook is intuitive imputation that precedes imputation of conceptuality. So even if there is cessation of thought there still is imputation by intuition.
Cessation of perception is the prerequisite for 'liberation being seen' (metaphorical use of 'seen') and if only imputation of conceptuality ceases but imputation of intuition is still active then liberation cannot be 'seen'.

One has to understand the reverse succession of absorptions in MN121 in the context of perception.
Intuitive imputation sets in in the formless dimension of nothingness and blossoms continually following its course through form dimensions up to so called 'desire' dimensions.

I validly know for myself perception and its cessation as a prerequisite for liberation. So you may argue about pali and mahayana as much you like. It is not about what tradition uses the correct linguistic expressions but it is about valid knowledge and authentic expression of that knowledge. I do authentically express what I validly know and I am using both pali and mahayana sources as linguistic support.

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And why, bhikkhus, do you call it perception? ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception. And what does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. ‘It perceives,’ bhikkhus, therefore it is called perception. SN 22.79

When Mahayana refers to "imputing", from a Pali perspective, this "imputing" is "sankhara" (fabricating views) and not "sanna" (perception).

 :namaste:
The point is that imputation of inherent existence ('self' of persons and 'self' of phenomena) is an innate feature of sense consciousnesses and thus is already inherent as conditioning in direct non-conceptual perception. It is essential to understand this and to not ascribe imputation of inherent existence only to conceptual perception.
This understanding can dawn validly only if perception has ceased and then sets in again. why? Because in cessation of perception there are not even imputing intuitions that could serve as basis for directly non-conceptually perceived objects and when perception sets in again it sets in through the re-arsing of intuitions on the level of sense consciousnesses empty of conceptuality, i.e. on the subject's side.
The 'crystallization' of phenomena out of the sphere of cessation of perception is initiated by imputing intuitions. This corresponds with what dzogchen calls 'the dynamic display of the ground of being'. So using dzogchen metaphorical linguistic expression, all phenomena, conventionally 'outer' and conventionally 'inner' phenomena, are 'the dynamic display of the ground of being'.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 27, 2017, 10:03:22 pm

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4. All perceptions necessarily arise from the original and natural emptiness [of perceptions] of mind that can be experienced first hand through cessation of perception.

No. When perception ceases, consciousness ceases. There cannot be an experience of the cessation of perception. Cessation of perception & feeling is merely something inferred when the mind emerges from the unconsciousness of the 9th jhana.

 :brick:
It is my use of conventional language only. Of course there cannnot be any experience in cessation of perception because experience always must have a quality which would require a perception.
But to say ' that can be not-experienced first hand through cessation of perception' would not make much sense conventionally either.
Alternatiively I could use the expression 'pure knowing' in the context of cessation of perception. But language here causes the same issue because if there is 'knowing' then that requires something that is known and that would require a perception too.

Cessation of perception is empty of self and other, empty of time and space, empty of everything and nothing, empty of oneness and manyness, empty of duality and non-duality, empty of emptiness ... and still whatever I will be merely saying cessation of perception is empty of will cause the issue of 'how can I validly know?' because 'to validly know' has been defined as 'having directly perceived'.  :wink1:

Therefore the cessation of perception is merely said to have an inherent knowing quality which is 'the ground of conscious being knowing itself'. I.e. it is merely said that when perception ceases in the context of a conscious being there still is this lucid and empty awareness as long as there is life.

However I will never be able to validate what I merely say here. Why? Because as long as there is this intuitive imputing perception or sentiment of 'I' it isn't 'it'.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 27, 2017, 11:57:27 pm
Cessation of perception is nothing but cessation of imputation, both intuitive and conceptual. What people most often overlook is intuitive imputation that precedes imputation of conceptuality. So even if there is cessation of thought there still is imputation by intuition.

You are refuting your own view here by equating 'perception' ('sanna') with 'conceptuality' ('sankhara'). 

Perception occurs such as looking at a forest & seeing the different shapes & colors of trees. This is perception.

For example, now I look at my desk & there is a roll of white toilet paper. The sensory impact (vedana) due to the color is soft or mild. Near this there is a bright red container and the sensory impact is stronger. The black outline of my laptop contrasts with the light green colour of the wall. These contrasts & subtle sensory impingements are perceptions. They are a long way from conceptualisation.
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Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about [conceptualises]. What one thinks about, one objectifies. MN 18

 :namaste:

Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 28, 2017, 12:00:34 am
Themes or signs (nimitta) are in SN 46.2, which are conceptualisations but not perceptions, for example:
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And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the beautiful...

And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen ill will and for the increase and expansion of arisen ill will? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the repulsive...
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 28, 2017, 12:13:51 am
Themes or signs (nimitta) are in SN 46.2, which are conceptualisations but not perceptions, for example:
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And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the beautiful...

And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen ill will and for the increase and expansion of arisen ill will? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the repulsive...

The talk of 'signs' is completely compatible. Also to call these 'conceptualizations' is completely compatible. Why? Because conceptualizations are imputations and are preceded by intuitions which are imputations too.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 31, 2017, 12:19:01 am
So in the themeless there are neither alleged properties nor alleged property-pocessors. That is why sometimes it is also translated as objectless.
No signs that could be mistaken as inhering properties and no signs that could be mistaken as arising or subsistence. That is called 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness'.

Now how can this be the prerequisite for liberation as stated above?

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1. Liberation cannot be attained without cessation of perception (i.e. experience of the original and natural emptiness of perceptions of mind) which - since imputation is the nature of perception - is cessation of all kinds of imputations, be they conceptual or intuitive.

In MN121 where it is the result of effortful meditation and the result of acceptance and rejection it is recognized thus:
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"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released ...

Now in dzogchen it is completely different since this lucid emptiness is not the result of effortful meditation and acceptance and rejection but reveals itself spontaneously in the context of direct introduction. Therefore in dzogchen this lucid emptiness can be validly known as the underlying ground of all perceptions, the ground which arises in and as all phenomena when the diversity of perceptions arises again. Knowing thus the duality of 'samsara vs nivana' has ceased.
That is why in dzogchen it is essential to not rely on meditation practices at all. Having perfected the view of dzogchen one can enter 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness' at will. Why? Because perceptions and their source, lucid emptiness, are simultaneously present and the perceptible is the appearance of lucid emptiness.

Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 01:45:01 am
To repeat the decisive point in the sutta:

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"There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way ... obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound."

"Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?"

"The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception."

...  the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance.


I.e. what is called the dimension of 'neither perception nor non-perception' is the best of all phenomena that can be clung to. There can be no better.

Since 'neither perception nor non-perception' is not 'perception' it is a similitude of 'cessation of perception'.

So in this sense to attain 'neither perception nor non-perception' is a worthwhile goal since it is the best of all sustenances.


Why is 'neither perception nor non-perception' only a similitude of 'cessation of perception'?

Because there still is the grasping at it:

Quote
There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.'

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url])



So liberation is attained through 'neither perception nor non-perception' AND at the same time not clinging to the equanimity of cessation of perception:

Quote
There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way ... obtains [the] equanimity [of of neither perception nor non-perception]. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."


But there still is the possibility that what results is still clung to and thus is not liberation as MN 121 still adds another stage which is cessation of perception as far as cessation of perception can reach and is called 'theme-less concentration' which however still is characterized by
Quote
His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its theme-less concentration of awareness.

... i.e. there is still 'clinging to' and thus there still is no liberation.

Actually this 'theme-less concentration' can only be distinguished from 'neither perception nor non-perception' based on its characteristic of 'no grasping at 'neither perception nor non-perception'' and thus this 'theme-less concentration' has to be as  'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach by definition.
Quote
"Further, Ananda, the monk — ... not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the theme-less concentration of awareness.


So is this 'theme-less concentration' the same as 'cessation of perception'? yes, it has to be set as 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body by definition:
Quote
There is only this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.


Therefore the 'emptiness' MN 121 is referring to is 'cessation of perception' as far as 'cessation of perception' can reach in the context of a living body:
Quote
Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.


If clinging even to this emptiness of perceptions ceases there is liberation:
Quote
"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'



What's the message of all this?

1. Liberation cannot be attained without cessation of perception (i.e. experience of the original and natural emptiness of perceptions of mind) which - since imputation is the nature of perception - is cessation of all kinds of imputations, be they conceptual or intuitive.

2. Liberation is not the same as cessation of perception.

3. If there is clinging to this cessation of perception after having experienced it then liberation is not attained.

4. All perceptions necessarily arise from the original and natural emptiness [of perceptions] of mind that can be experienced first hand through cessation of perception.


Sadhu!

Question: Would it be correct to say (in short, missing some chains): "By direct perceiving that even this dwelling is conditioned, one is freed of desire for becoming, released."?

Secound, and importand, like just theory here: how to gain, what's the way to come there an see for one self?
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on August 31, 2017, 02:00:15 pm
Sadhu!

Question: Would it be correct to say (in short, missing some chains): "By direct perceiving that even this dwelling is conditioned, one is freed of desire for becoming, released."?
That 'this dwelling' is conditioned is an inference, not a direct perception. It is an inference from the directly perceptible fact that you cannot have a permanent cessation of perception when the body is alive.
Being freed of desire for becoming is a natural consequence of seeing perception as a natural expression of life and thus seeing the perceived as empty of inherent existence.

Secound, and importand, like just theory here: how to gain, what's the way to come there an see for one self?
To see for oneself is to spontaneously 'see' (metaphor)  lucid emptiness.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on August 31, 2017, 04:53:33 pm
Quote
Ground: Being freed of desire for becoming is a natural consequence of seeing perception as a natural expression of life.


(the «even» (also) in the sentence befor... and the "in short, missing some chains", had reasons)

Sure? Here again the danger of becoming (not only pure materialist while training) and nonpercepting-being (asaññasatta) after break up of the body, is not abound "the cosmos" first.

You teaching before was to avoid to become just a "nevasaññanasaññayatanupaga deva" (therefor Sadhu was expressed) but my person "fears" there is still groundling somewhere under the 1. four jhanas or even exclusively in the sphere of "the world"

nevasaññanasaññayatanupaga can be a gross sañña of one who did not penetrate the gross first and dwells in householderequanimity.

Having trained in that way for a good while in the internet-realm for my self in that way, perceived directly it's ways, out come and danger, my person urges to do not oversee the danger, not over-estimate one self.

Quote
To see for oneself is to spontaneously 'see' (metaphor)  lucid emptiness.

Thats no answer but perception playing. "How to learn, what to train to see? See." That if even understanding, haven seen, is a comment of one not able to explain the path.

Maybe Ground likes to explain about the undesired "asaññasatta" and how such can happen.

Purely de-objectification , apapanca is a form of Nihilism, actually a modern popular form of gross ignorance taken as releasing knowing and seeing. It has not penedrated the five sense and it's objects but sees the sixth, intelect as the "All"

Quote
Despite the abstract format of this discourse, it deals with an emotional topic: the source of emotions, the use of the emotions in the course of the practice, and the ideal emotional state of a person who has completed the path and is fit to teach others. In particular, this discourse counters a common misperception: that the distress that comes from having an unachieved goal is an obstacle in the practice, and that the antidote for that distress is to renounce any sense of goals. In actuality, that distress — termed "renunciation distress" — has an important role in the practice: to overcome the distress that comes with a sense of loss over sensual pleasures that have not been attained, or those that have been attained in the past but now no longer exist. Renunciation distress serves as a reminder that the loss of sensual pleasures is not a serious matter. As for renunciation distress, it is overcome, not by abandoning any sense of goal, but by following the path and realizing the joy that comes when the goal is reached.

This discourse counters another misperception as well: that equanimity is the goal of the practice. In actuality, renunciation equanimity serves a function as part of the path of practice — as a tool for letting go of renunciation joy — and then it, too, is transcended by the state called "non-fashioning" (atammayata), in which there is no act of intention, not even the intention underlying equanimity, at all.

Salayatana-vibhanga Sutta ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.137.than_en.html[/url]): An Analysis of the Six Sense-media
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 01, 2017, 01:47:01 am
Quote
Ground: Being freed of desire for becoming is a natural consequence of seeing perception as a natural expression of life.

(the «even» (also) in the sentence befor... and the "in short, missing some chains", had reasons)

Sure?
yes, my linguistic expression has been appropriately selected given the context.

Quote
To see for oneself is to spontaneously 'see' (metaphor)  lucid emptiness.
Thats no answer but perception playing. "How to learn, what to train to see? See." That if even understanding, haven seen, is a comment of one not able to explain the path.

Maybe Ground likes to explain about the undesired "asaññasatta" and how such can happen.
It is simply a mode of consciousness. It is no 'being'. Desire, form and formless realm are just metaphors for modes of consciousness. What is called 'rebirth in lower realms' after having attained the status of a 'being' in the form or formless is just metaphorical 'rebirth' of ordinary perception. Liberation however is to overcome ordinary perception through insight. So the solution is not the formless but the formless may be a stepping stone for liberation if discernment, i.e. rational analysis,  prevails, see MN121.
However what I called 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness' in the context of dzogchen is beyond even the formless since it reveals itself spontaneously and does not have any frame of reference like meditation. But even this 'cessation of perception' or 'immersion in lucid emptiness' of dzogchen is not liberation but it is the prerequisite for liberation which is overcoming of ordinary perception in the context of dzogchen view.

How to avoid getting caught up in and attached to modes of consciousness?
1. Do not meditate at all. Meditation is totally inappropriate.
2. Rely on discernment, i.e. rational analysis, exclusively.

Purely de-objectification , apapanca is a form of Nihilism, actually a modern popular form of gross ignorance taken as releasing knowing and seeing. It has not penedrated the five sense and it's objects but sees the sixth, intelect as the "All"
From your beliefers' perspective I certainly hold a nihilist view. Why? Because I reject beliefs and advocate valid knowledge.

As to goals: Our goals are not the same. They cannot be the same since you believe and I don't.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 01, 2017, 02:45:36 am
For a "Not-believer" Ground assumes a lot... especially perceptions of other, while at the same time rejecting the possibility.

How ever, great that he found a little ground outside perception-playings in the middle part.

Nevertheless, since clinging to perception-fascination, Ground like always did not answered the question.

Go on with playing with the intellect, might be that nessesary spontaneously arises and Sadhu for the effort to give certain things a try.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Chaz on September 01, 2017, 02:46:32 am
A dizzying array of utter nonsense.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 01, 2017, 03:32:39 am
For a "Not-believer" Ground assumes a lot... especially perceptions of other, while at the same time rejecting the possibility.

How ever, great that he found a little ground outside perception-playings in the middle part.

Nevertheless, since clinging to perception-fascination, Ground like always did not answered the question.

Go on with playing with the intellect, might be that nessesary spontaneously arises and Sadhu for the effort to give certain things a try.

your English is so bad that I rarely can synthesize a consistent meaning when seeing your words.

As to belief: belief generally is imputation of truth to objects of one's mind which include perceptions. Since I do perceive all objects as empty of true existence they cannot appear as truths to my mind and therefore it is impossible for me to believe anything.
Direct perception of emptiness is liberation from belief. One does not even believe in emptiness since it is empty of true existence too.

For you who believes in truth it is best to take my words as a potential inspiration similar to a drawing.

Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 01, 2017, 07:51:34 am
True?
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 01, 2017, 02:08:11 pm
True?
Empty of truth.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Chaz on September 01, 2017, 03:41:24 pm
For a "Not-believer" Ground assumes a lot... especially perceptions of other, while at the same time rejecting the possibility.

How ever, great that he found a little ground outside perception-playings in the middle part.

Nevertheless, since clinging to perception-fascination, Ground like always did not answered the question.

Go on with playing with the intellect, might be that nessesary spontaneously arises and Sadhu for the effort to give certain things a try.

your English is so bad that I rarely can synthesize a consistent meaning when seeing your words.

I must agree.

Hanzee,

For all the good you're trying to do, it's overwhelmed by how poorly you write English.  I'm perplexed by this.  Most people raised in Northern Europe in the last 60 years were taught English.  There are times when what you right approaches lucidty, but most of the time it's words strung together almost at random.

In addition, you won't write of yourself, or to others directly.

I suspect a pathology t work.  Either that or a very elaborate troll.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 01, 2017, 06:25:12 pm
This matter, that to be no excuses for failures of my person, has especially in regard of perception and in regard of intent, willingness and capability (e.g. freedom of greed and aversion, kusala intent), it's throughout good use. If searching for usual satisfaction there is no danger that someone wast to much time in trying to take on it. If with an akusala mind hearing, reading pleasant, nicca seeming things, you take on them, hold them for through and follow blind beleaving. For it's not direct perceived. So there is certain need to leave levels and states of consciousness. Can you see true it, Emptiness de-weller s?
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 02, 2017, 12:51:27 am
This matter, that to be no excuses for failures of my person, has especially in regard of perception and in regard of intent, willingness and capability (e.g. freedom of greed and aversion, kusala intent), it's throughout good use. If searching for usual satisfaction there is no danger that someone wast to much time in trying to take on it. If with an akusala mind hearing, reading pleasant, nicca seeming things, you take on them, hold them for through and follow blind beleaving. For it's not direct perceived. So there is certain need to leave levels and states of consciousness. Can you see true it, Emptiness de-weller s?
What?  :lmfao:

you should better switch to German so that at least people who speak German may make use of your words.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 02:43:36 am
Seems that empty greed has arosen, green as Ground vibes, of course just Atmas perception even not much touched. It's not a language "problem", practical perceived in three languages, even without formal.

How could wirklich und wahr possible be good translated? What's the "deeper" conventional different (aside common use)? Of course German actually would be a better language for Dhamma-discussions, since more 'deep-walk' and not so common nailed.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Chaz on September 02, 2017, 05:35:06 am
Seems that empty greed has arosen, green as Ground vibes, of course just Atmas perception even not much touched. It's not a language "problem", practical perceived in three languages, even without formal.

How could wirklich und wahr possible be good translated? What's the "deeper" conventional different (aside common use)? Of course German actually would be a better language for Dhamma-discussions, since more 'deep-walk' and not so common nailed.

What's important to the present discussion is how YOU translate it.

Your translations are so bad it's almost as if you do this on purpose.  IOW you're trolling.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 05:51:52 am
Oh, you seek arguments why food is not tasty. "He sure likes to hurt or kill". If feeling better with arguments that cause Idealtalk compassion (eg. greed) arising in this circumstances: "luckily" given small table and "sadly" big fingers, slow 56kb connection, if, energy "troubles" - quick on save - "better not perfect then lost", no spell-checker..., weather, lot of creeping, biting ... co-dwelles, hurting eyes, malaria-attacks, sickness, lack of power, not really learned languages and ignorant to it, especially before having given up taking what is not given (incl. knowledge), no dictionaries... a beggar, no problem when "rich" laugh or find it annoying, verbal beat and not a little up to gain ever acceptance, not speaking about above. Take, reject, make out of bad some good, out of good excellent... or the opposite, ones issue, choice. Better, greedy, touched, or even more annoyed?

If liking to get sure about one virtues and circumstances, its needed to live near/next, and observe long time, discerning when not knowing, having walked in certain shoes (eg non). For both there are no restrictions. Nothing to hidde and no reasons to put makeup on or seek other ways for trade.

Like to go further into the op- topic or is following what was assumed as stalking more pleasant?
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 07:07:07 am
MN121 carries no indication that not penetrating rupa fist (eg "cosmos") is not the most potential danger and that mistaking any "lower" jhana, equanimity, with the higher and end up as no-perception being (counsciousness), if even that far and not groundling totally on the ground, mistaking it as earth-conceive/perception.

No meditation (eg. Concentration): it's nonsens that such is not needed. Ground, if a little mindful, reflective, knows well that to talk and appear in the way he does needs a lot of concentration and mindfulness and that it easily collapse into green vibration. (e.g. still very conditioned)

The training he does is a good one and gives much, but as sad, if the base, the ground lacks, very dangerous.

A good actor has such skill, but even so it's easy to end up as simply crazy.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 02, 2017, 08:45:59 pm
...
No meditation (eg. Concentration): it's nonsens that such is not needed. ...

Of course in so called 'lower vehicles' meditation is needed. What are 'lower vehicles'? 'lower vehicles' are condioned views based on ordinary mind and its ordinary perceptions. The practice described in MN121 is an instance of 'lower vehicle'.
However rational analysis into the meaning of MN121 may reveal that the meditations decribed therein are nonsense because even the buddha recognizes those to be nonsense and is liberated thus:
Quote
"He discerns that 'This theme-less concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
But still ordinary mind may not be content that even the buddha declares meditations to be nonsense and still speculate about something to be achieved by means of meditations. So it will be hard for ordinary mind to get the main meaning of MN121 if it is totally unfamiliar with preliminary conceptual dzogchen view.
So ordinary mind that is unfamiliar with preliminary conceptual dzogchen view will have to take the effortful route described in MN121 to experience first hand the nature of perception and non-perception.
However ordinary mind that is familiar with preliminary conceptual dzogchen view may be - but not necessarily is - directly introduced to the ground empty of perceptions depending on a complex set of conditions.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 09:18:31 pm
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception, either vehicle is. Aside of the fact that Ground seems to have perceptional problems with deeper meanings of conventional terms, e.g. not fit to discuss.
To be able to excange on convention it requires to start in an "equal" sphere of perception and as maybe a-greed, higher meditations/concentrations/jhanas do not allow dhamma to be conventional expressed or received. So pointless your guidingless undertaking to guide, factual and wahr/true. The try behind "the all"

"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): that's the point, why the Buddha was able to count and discribe each singe branch passing when falling from a tree, here seems the *peng* only perception (if even) assume that no branch was passed, even that have been fallen from a tree. (sensual desire abounding nessesary first) So it looks more as if one stucks between branches high above the ground.

Saw nice tables (https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/joy-samadhi-nirvana-sequence-map-in-ma-42-to-ma-50/4707/13) yesterday, maybe of use, for those not seeking to join sticking between branches, having a perceptional ground in maintaining.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 03, 2017, 11:25:46 pm
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception,
In the context of buddhism it is valid because there are buddhist traditions that use this distinction. One can directly perceive these words in authentic buddhist texts, therefore their use is valid.
In the context of liberation of course one sees that there isn't any vehicle that leads to where one hasn't been already before. Why? Because liberation has been present from the outset.


...
"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): ...
No, that should not be confused. I called it '"complex set of conditions" because I cannot know it generally, i.e. for all individuals. I validly know it for myself however and this knowledge does not affirm what traditions and buddhist texts say about the prerequisites for successful direct introduction to the ground of being. E.g. nearly all traditions say that a so called 'teacher' or 'master' is required who directly introduces but I cannot affirm this. Why? Because in my case it happened spontaneously when reading a text.
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 04, 2017, 12:08:04 am
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception,

In the context of buddhism it is valid because there are buddhist traditions that use this distinction. One can directly perceive these words in authentic buddhist texts, therefore their use is valid.

Maybe in (a context labeled as) Buddhism (from some), in regard of Buddha an his teaching, see your better statement beloe, since Buddha gave things generally in contex of liberation, and so neither vehicles nor low or high, as if divided.
In the context of liberation of course one sees that there isn't any vehicle that leads to where one hasn't been already before. Why? Because liberation has been present from the outset.
Nibbana is aleays there, yes. So the way if explained.

...
"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): ...

No, that should not be confused. I called it '"complex set of conditions" because I cannot know it generally, i.e. for all individuals. I validly know it for myself however and this knowledge does not affirm what traditions and buddhist texts say about the prerequisites for successful direct introduction to the ground of being. E.g. nearly all traditions say that a so called 'teacher' or 'master' is required who directly introduces but I cannot affirm this. Why? Because in my case it happened spontaneously when reading a text.
Nobody says generally, there are paccecabuddhas yes, and saying "had no teacher" after having been treaded years from them and their generosity, even descriped here shows fine that this was not even sotapanna, liberation by listening hearing, since such a person knows well right view, about gifts and sacrify, mother and father, those gone right... So absolutly over estimation.
It's right that there is no Noble being needed for gaining paths, but to hear, read the true Dhamma while having proper attention. As for path enter for stages, or last, my person is well on Grounds side, that one can meditate for eons without success, but path is reached by verbal contact (incl. Signs, of course) [Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation (http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,7938.0.html)

Mudita for Grounds possible reach of Stapanna, if, anyway. Now it's up to straighten views and reach for fruit, since just waiting till death till rupa gets clear as well, would be a terrible waste. So it's good to seek proper assosiation.

Certain imperfections are still present for a sotapanna, like some of those here actual (recognising them possible accurate here in this case), whereas doubt with the Dhamma makes certain doubt that a path to right liberation is gained:

Quote
sātheyyaṁ – bragging and boasting about oneself having better qualities than we have
thambho – hard-heartedness and stubborn obstinacy when others teach us, encouraging and explaining things to us correctly
sārambho – to not accept or follow – to take issue and become argumentative in various ways – when others explain things correctly according to Dhamma
māno – arrogance, thinking 'us', 'them', 'me', 'myself'
atimāno – pride, overly disparaging other people
mado – intoxication and delusion with regard to the body which is deteriorating through aging every day, insisting that one is still a young man or woman, heedless; deluded in the body which is constantly getting sick and needing to take medicine – that is, food and drink – every morning and evening, insisting that we have no disease, living healthy and at ease, heedless; and deluded in life which is uncertain, quickly snuffed out like a lantern having been lit out in a clearing, insisting that we won't yet die, heedless.


On a Maha-Moha-Mayayana (incledible great delude illusion vehicle), such perceptions like Ground might stick on are called maya, illusion, if remembering right, and usually frog-pills are admistert, or to watch the dance with proper attention:

(https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/xIX1vWLkZIiK8M4rSJsNvg--~A/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD01NjQ7dz00MDA-/http://www.wilderutopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tibetan-Skeleton-Dance.jpg.cf.jpg)

Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 04, 2017, 10:53:34 pm
A perception of lower and higher vehicles is not a valid perception,

In the context of buddhism it is valid because there are buddhist traditions that use this distinction. One can directly perceive these words in authentic buddhist texts, therefore their use is valid.

Maybe in (a context labeled as) Buddhism (from some), in regard of Buddha an his teaching, see your better statement beloe, since Buddha gave things generally in contex of liberation, and so neither vehicles nor low or high, as if divided.
In the context of liberation of course one sees that there isn't any vehicle that leads to where one hasn't been already before. Why? Because liberation has been present from the outset.
Nibbana is aleays there, yes. So the way if explained.

...
"complex set of conditions" (lokutara depending origination): ...

No, that should not be confused. I called it '"complex set of conditions" because I cannot know it generally, i.e. for all individuals. I validly know it for myself however and this knowledge does not affirm what traditions and buddhist texts say about the prerequisites for successful direct introduction to the ground of being. E.g. nearly all traditions say that a so called 'teacher' or 'master' is required who directly introduces but I cannot affirm this. Why? Because in my case it happened spontaneously when reading a text.
Nobody says generally, there are paccecabuddhas yes, and saying "had no teacher" after having been treaded years from them and their generosity, even descriped here shows fine that this was not even sotapanna, liberation by listening hearing, since such a person knows well right view, about gifts and sacrify, mother and father, those gone right... So absolutly over estimation.
It's right that there is no Noble being needed for gaining paths, but to hear, read the true Dhamma while having proper attention. As for path enter for stages, or last, my person is well on Grounds side, that one can meditate for eons without success, but path is reached by verbal contact (incl. Signs, of course) [Belehrung] Pfaderlangen erfolgt nicht durch Meditation ([url]http://sangham.net/index.php/topic,7938.0.html[/url])

Mudita for Grounds possible reach of Stapanna, if, anyway. Now it's up to straighten views and reach for fruit, since just waiting till death till rupa gets clear as well, would be a terrible waste. So it's good to seek proper assosiation.

Certain imperfections are still present for a sotapanna, like some of those here actual (recognising them possible accurate here in this case), whereas doubt with the Dhamma makes certain doubt that a path to right liberation is gained:

Quote
sātheyyaṁ – bragging and boasting about oneself having better qualities than we have
thambho – hard-heartedness and stubborn obstinacy when others teach us, encouraging and explaining things to us correctly
sārambho – to not accept or follow – to take issue and become argumentative in various ways – when others explain things correctly according to Dhamma
māno – arrogance, thinking 'us', 'them', 'me', 'myself'
atimāno – pride, overly disparaging other people
mado – intoxication and delusion with regard to the body which is deteriorating through aging every day, insisting that one is still a young man or woman, heedless; deluded in the body which is constantly getting sick and needing to take medicine – that is, food and drink – every morning and evening, insisting that we have no disease, living healthy and at ease, heedless; and deluded in life which is uncertain, quickly snuffed out like a lantern having been lit out in a clearing, insisting that we won't yet die, heedless.


On a Maha-Moha-Mayayana (incledible great delude illusion vehicle), such perceptions like Ground might stick on are called maya, illusion, if remembering right, and usually frog-pills are admistert, or to watch the dance with proper attention:

([url]https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/xIX1vWLkZIiK8M4rSJsNvg--~A/YXBwaWQ9eWlzZWFyY2g7Zmk9Zml0O2dlPTAwNjYwMDtncz0wMEEzMDA7aD01NjQ7dz00MDA-/http://www.wilderutopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Tibetan-Skeleton-Dance.jpg.cf.jpg[/url])


you shouldn't always make so many words. All your ideas arise from the ground of non-perception which is lucid emptiness and this emptiness is empty of any meaning. So all meanings your ordinary mind fabricates are just the display of this ground.
How could true meaning arise from what is meaningless from the outset? Cessation of perception isn't a depressive meaninglessness, it is empty emptiness which is lucid since it is the ground of conscious being. Sometimes it is even a blissful meaninglessness.
It shimmers through in between thoughts and intuitions. It cannot be removed through making many words. It is always spontaneously present. Lucid emptiness, the potentially blissful meaninglessness of everything and nothing.

Nevertheless meanings and perceptions continue to arise ceaselessly because that's the nature of the ground. But the ground knowing itself they are liberated spontaneously.

Now I have made many words myself.  :teehee: Forget them all. My words are not important. There're just natural expression of basic meaninglessness.

Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: Samana Johann on September 04, 2017, 11:27:29 pm
Really? How comes?

Maybe our world fist living householder-arahat may explain how things like such come into being, even do not decay, next the refrigerator. This basic meaninglessness.
*empty of basic meaninglessness, he decides empty to walk to the shop, so to stay a field of merits for those who trade...*
Title: Re: The imperturbable OR discernment and liberation
Post by: ground on September 05, 2017, 05:19:31 am
Really? How comes?

Maybe our world fist living householder-arahat may explain how things like such come into being, even do not decay, next the refrigerator. This basic meaninglessness.
*empty of basic meaninglessness, he decides empty to walk to the shop, so to stay a field of merits for those who trade...*
Hey bro, you may call me 'refrigerated arahat'   :fu:
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