Author Topic: Theories of liberation  (Read 192 times)

Offline Arkena

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Theories of liberation
« on: July 02, 2017, 02:56:37 pm »
I was wondering if anyone could point out sources for paths to liberation found in buddhism as i am compilling my own personal path to liberation from various sources and my understanding.

So far i have gotten this far:

Quote
Develop mindfulness to enable you to be aware of your inner world, of what comes from the external world and what are reactions that come from your internal world and whose control can be learnt.
Buddhist teaching of two arrows...
(Mindfulness)

Understand and notice when biological programming asserts itself in jealousy,hate,prejudice, lust,judging etc and challenge these drives not by rationalising with them intellectually but by waking up from them mindfully and understanding how they lead you into behaviours that do not deliver the happiness they seem to promise.
Understand how each of 7 not so deadly sins leads you away from happiness and contentment.
(The buddhist 3 poisons)

Notice how the mind creates a delusional identity from your possessions, social class, earnings, past story etc
You are not your possessions, your job, the body, your story, your thoughts , you are the formless observer of all these things, they are like plants that all come from the soil of your fertile awareness. you are looking through the plants looking for yourself.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2017, 06:41:56 pm »
MN 43 refers to five kinds of liberation:

1. the 4th jhana, liberation from pleasure & pain

2. boundless loving-kindness

3. the signless / themeless

4. perception of nothingness

5. voidness (sunnata) of greed, hared & delusion, which is the foremost liberation

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn43, which uses the word 'freedom'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html, which uses the word 'release'

 :namaste:


Offline ground

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2017, 09:45:55 pm »
Another: Liberation is spontaneously present. That theory is supported by the Sabba sutta and the Bāhiya Sutta.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 09:54:35 pm by ground »

Offline ground

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2017, 10:09:38 pm »
However it would perhaps be more appropriate to use the scientific linguistic convention here and speak of 'hypotheses of liberation' once there is a clear cut understanding of what it is one wants to be liberated from.
In science only when a hypothesis is confirmed by experiments it becomes a theory, i.e. a theory is already validated by practice.

My own theory of liberation is:
1. one established the emptiness of inherent existence, i.e. the emptiness of truth, of all phenomena, self and other, by means of rational analysis which implies seeing that all phenomena, self and other, exist only through imputation.
2. one establishes the ground of [conscious] being by means of thoroughly investigating into the question: Since all phenomena, self and other, exist only through imputation, what then exists without imputation? The 'answer' necessarily cannot involved any imputation and thus necessarily is empty of both, intuitive and conceptual imputations. The 'answer' emerges spontaneously.
Then being again in the imputing mode of consciousness one can say that 'the answer' has already been met countless times before but obviously has passed by kind of 'unnoticed', i.e. has not been registered.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 10:51:36 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2017, 01:35:50 am »
Quote
Then being again in the imputing mode of consciousness one can say that 'the answer' has already been met countless times before but obviously has passed by kind of 'unnoticed', i.e. has not been registered.


"Such can happen", its not the first time some "crazy" try to wake up the talker.


The Parami-believers under the Secterians existed at Buddhas times as well, diffenent was just, that they encouraged to "merit-making". The Buddha asked them: "Then, do you know how many merits you have to do more? How many you already did? That there is rebirth?..." "No".

Today many jump even around the Ground of Secterians, willing to press the Dhamma into it.

After rebuking this useless talker without knowing, without path, he taught the Dhamma, ending with the actions to be done, since anything else brings the untrained mind just to papanca (question about self and their growing endless).

Think it was, yes: Tittha Sutta: Sectarians, no it was another, called something like "inaction", but the same context only the rebuke was clearer. Maybe Atma remembers.

There are many ways liberation (work done) is discriped, but it comes down to 4 stages, beginning with Streamenter to Arahat.
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Offline ground

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2017, 08:45:51 am »
There are many ways liberation (work done) is discriped, but it comes down to 4 stages, beginning with Streamenter to Arahat.
Since due to individual inner intelligence everybody knows better than everbody else there are as many right views as there are individuals. I can only say that my theory is called 'theory' - applying the scientific convention of 'theory' - since it has been validated.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:49:03 am by ground »

Offline Arkena

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2017, 03:55:55 pm »
I didnt realise other people compiled core teachings that they thought were stages of liberation...

I will have to think on these answers and read mindfully the sutras.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2017, 04:03:23 pm »
There are many ways liberation (work done) is discriped, but it comes down to 4 stages, beginning with Streamenter to Arahat.
Since due to individual inner intelligence everybody knows better than everbody else there are as many right views as there are individuals. I can only say that my theory is called 'theory' - applying the scientific convention of 'theory' - since it has been validated.
There is no such as inner intelligence. Not everybody knows. The is just one right view. Ground likes to say, not can. Yes, his theory is called his theory, and such is talking the day. There is no such as scientific convention, nor has or is any of such anywhere or by any authority validated. Science changes its opinion as Ground his argument, grasped already wrong.
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2017, 05:14:02 pm »
I didnt realise other people compiled core teachings that they thought were stages of liberation...

I will have to think on these answers and read mindfully the sutras.

Maybe it would be good to think about what the question actually is, what Nyom Arkaena likes to ask, and put it into clear words.
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Offline ground

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2017, 11:50:51 pm »
There are many ways liberation (work done) is discriped, but it comes down to 4 stages, beginning with Streamenter to Arahat.
Since due to individual inner intelligence everybody knows better than everbody else there are as many right views as there are individuals. I can only say that my theory is called 'theory' - applying the scientific convention of 'theory' - since it has been validated.
There is no such as inner intelligence.
There is. Otherwise you could not write.

Not everybody knows.
Everybody knows better than everbody else. E.g. I know that you are treading a useless path and you know that your path is the only one. I know better than you and you know better than me. We both are led by our inner intelligence and in that context we both have right view. Why? Because if I would tread your path it would be useless effort for me and if you would follow my way you would suffer even more.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 12:14:10 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 12:20:11 am »
There are many ways liberation (work done) is discriped, but it comes down to 4 stages, beginning with Streamenter to Arahat.
Since due to individual inner intelligence everybody knows better than everbody else there are as many right views as there are individuals. I can only say that my theory is called 'theory' - applying the scientific convention of 'theory' - since it has been validated.
There is no such as inner intelligence.
There is. Otherwise you could not write.
That does not say that there is intelligence (what ever that should be) is behind and its not sure that possible, say in an hour.

Not everybody knows.
Everybody knows better than everbody else. E.g. I know that you are treading a useless path and you know that your path is the only one. I know better than you and you know better than me. We both are led by our inner intelligence and in that context we both have right view. Why? Because if I would tread your path it would be useless effort for me and if you would follow my way you would suffer even more.
Thats like your "everybody knowswhats best for him"-thesis. Merely "rebelling child arguing with mommy not liking to give up foolish habits" still. Call it intelligence. Wise it is not.
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Offline ground

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 12:25:19 am »
There are many ways liberation (work done) is discriped, but it comes down to 4 stages, beginning with Streamenter to Arahat.
Since due to individual inner intelligence everybody knows better than everbody else there are as many right views as there are individuals. I can only say that my theory is called 'theory' - applying the scientific convention of 'theory' - since it has been validated.
There is no such as inner intelligence.
There is. Otherwise you could not write.
That does not say that there is intelligence (what ever that should be) is behind and its not sure that possible, say in an hour.
Well there is intelligence in the open conscious non-personal system that you are. It is only felt self that conceals that intelligence.

Not everybody knows.
Everybody knows better than everbody else. E.g. I know that you are treading a useless path and you know that your path is the only one. I know better than you and you know better than me. We both are led by our inner intelligence and in that context we both have right view. Why? Because if I would tread your path it would be useless effort for me and if you would follow my way you would suffer even more.
Thats like your "everybody knowswhats best for him"-thesis. Merely "rebelling child arguing with mommy not liking to give up foolish habits" still. Call it intelligence. Wise it is not.
Even the child knows better than mommy and mommy knows better than the child. In the case of child/mommy it is only power that finally decides.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 12:49:34 am »
There are many ways liberation (work done) is discriped, but it comes down to 4 stages, beginning with Streamenter to Arahat.
Since due to individual inner intelligence everybody knows better than everbody else there are as many right views as there are individuals. I can only say that my theory is called 'theory' - applying the scientific convention of 'theory' - since it has been validated.
There is no such as inner intelligence.
There is. Otherwise you could not write.
That does not say that there is intelligence (what ever that should be) is behind and its not sure that possible, say in an hour.
Well there is intelligence in the open conscious non-personal system that you are. It is only felt self that conceals that intelligence.
Sure, watching to much movies and reading useless stuff can impress a open conscious non-personal system.

Not everybody knows.
Everybody knows better than everbody else. E.g. I know that you are treading a useless path and you know that your path is the only one. I know better than you and you know better than me. We both are led by our inner intelligence and in that context we both have right view. Why? Because if I would tread your path it would be useless effort for me and if you would follow my way you would suffer even more.
Thats like your "everybody knowswhats best for him"-thesis. Merely "rebelling child arguing with mommy not liking to give up foolish habits" still. Call it intelligence. Wise it is not.
Even the child knows better than mommy and mommy knows better than the child. In the case of child/mommy it is only power that finally decides.
Sure, because the child is intellect. Ground does not see how much he owes her. Poor are those streets kids, relaying existence on power. Play Ground, play around. Somebody will pay for its purpose-less waste or for it's purpose, but its just another open conscious non-personal system, who carres, once already liberated.
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Offline ground

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 09:30:02 pm »
I didnt realise other people compiled core teachings that they thought were stages of liberation...
Everyone does, at  least for him-/herself, that's for sure. When you have studied the conventional teachings deeply enough you will do too.
Why? Because everybody knows better than everybody else.

I will have to think on these answers and read mindfully the sutras.
That's propably the only thing you can do for now.

Offline Arkena

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Re: Theories of liberation
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2017, 06:32:05 pm »
 :dharma:  :pray:

 


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