Author Topic: There is only space and movement  (Read 362 times)

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2017, 01:37:27 am »
Space is pure negativity. Why negativity? Because it's pure absence of everything and nothing. Cessation of perception.

Space is conditioned & bondage. Refer to MN 140.

Element, I think you are missing the point.  The six properties of a person stuff in MN140 is really a teaching on anatta.

See here for a different perspective: https://suttacentral.net/en/kv6.6
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 02:01:05 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2017, 01:40:10 am »
What do you think?

I think it's a trick question.

To trick certain people into something pointless and silly.

It wasn't a trick question.

Have you any constructive comment to offer?

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2017, 01:49:17 am »
These are the six elements’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted … uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins. ‘These are the six bases for contact’ … ‘These are the eighteen mental examinations’ … ‘These are the four noble truths’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, irreproachable and uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins.[/size]

In the suttas there are various formulations, eg 6 properties of a person, 6 sense bases, 5 aggregates.  But these are models of experience, methods for investigation, not to be taken too literally and not to be grasped at as "things". 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 01:52:29 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2017, 06:05:11 am »
Quote
Spiny:  "There is only space and movement.

The space we occupy, and the "space" of our mind.

The movement of the elements, our senses, and our mind.

What do you think?"

By space we have come to scientifically postulate, or to postulate in science.:  "Space-Time" of which currently the existence of time, as we have accepted it all of our lives, is now doubted to exist at all.

Instead, it is now the relative positions of all the elements, enegies, and forces, and their conglomerates (what Buddha would have called the aggregates?) , which is thought to be a more accurate understanding of what we came to think of as time.

We know for a fact that each element, force and photon and their conglomerates cause an effect upon each and every other element, force, and photon and their conglomerates.

If by movement we come to understand what we now call energy and force due to photonic paths of travel and the kinetics of  elements en mass in their conglomerates, then I am with you.

What do you think? :listen:
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 06:10:33 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Online IdleChater

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2017, 06:25:54 am »
hi
What do you think?

I think it's a trick question.

To trick certain people into something pointless and silly.

It wasn't a trick question.

Have you any constructive comment to offer?
.

Not just yet, but then niether has anyone else.

TBH, I have no idea what this thread is about.  It basically went South after the OP.  Never had a chance.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 08:04:33 am by IdleChater »

Offline ground

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2017, 01:04:31 am »
There is only space and movement.

The space we occupy, and the "space" of our mind.

The movement of the elements, our senses, and our mind.

What do you think?

Another thought:

The German philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) posited space and time as basic conditions for perceptions inhering in the subject. I.e. human perceptions are possible only through these a priori given conditionings in humans.
'Movement' actually is just an expression of time since to perceive movement is to indirectly impute time which is a basic subjective condition.
So your thesis "There is only space and movement" could be expressed as 'There is only space and time' as well and actually it would be better expressed this way since when there is only space then there is nothing that could move.

'There is only space and time' is however a solipsistic view since it negates everything other than the subject and affirms only the subject's own basic conditioning.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2017, 02:00:13 am »
"Space-Time" of which currently the existence of time, as we have accepted it all of our lives, is now doubted to exist at all.

Could you elaborate on this Ron?  Are you saying that the time dimension of space-time doesn't actually exist?  What about the Arrow of time, entropy, atomic clocks, etc?

When I made the statement "There is only space and movement", I was thinking about our experience at the human scale.  However, I think it would also apply at the sub-atomic and cosmic scales? 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 03:05:50 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2017, 02:04:34 am »
That was meant by Danger, Norman, take care on the perception "there is just mind" at a to early time in practice.

I wasn't suggesting that.  The elements-senses-mind model was an attempt to describe the way we experience things, including the sense of "out there" and "in here".  It's tricky because different Buddhist schools have different ideas about this, and also this is a philosophical can of worms.  Some might argue there is only the movement of the elements, or only the movement of the senses or only the movement of the mind.  The main point was about movement though.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 03:20:26 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2017, 03:15:31 am »
Another thought:
The German philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) posited space and time as basic conditions for perceptions inhering in the subject. I.e. human perceptions are possible only through these a priori given conditionings in humans.
'Movement' actually is just an expression of time since to perceive movement is to indirectly impute time which is a basic subjective condition.
So your thesis "There is only space and movement" could be expressed as 'There is only space and time' as well and actually it would be better expressed this way since when there is only space then there is nothing that could move.
'There is only space and time' is however a solipsistic view since it negates everything other than the subject and affirms only the subject's own basic conditioning.

Yes, this is a philosophical can of worms, particularly when you factor in notions of objectivity and subjectivity.  You could say that objectively there would be no movement without the passage of time, you could also say that subjectively there would be no sense of time passing without the observation of movement. 

« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 03:22:49 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2017, 05:51:43 am »
That was meant by Danger, Norman, take care on the perception "there is just mind" at a to early time in practice.

I wasn't suggesting that.  The elements-senses-mind model was an attempt to describe the way we experience things, including the sense of "out there" and "in here".  It's tricky because different Buddhist schools have different ideas about this, and also this is a philosophical can of worms.  Some might argue there is only the movement of the elements, or only the movement of the senses or only the movement of the mind.  The main point was about movement though.

Actually, Norman, Danger in that way that it inspires that the is just mind-approaches and that at a moment where Form/four great Elements is not penetrated really.

General, Grounds Answer fits well to the Dhamma. "There is just time and space" for a being. By penetrating Time and space, eg. "Movement", one stands firm.

Time and space => rupa needs a surface (mind) to come into being. When there is no more touching, lacking of surface, it all ends.

(If not having penetrated the great elements, its like throwing to water out of a glass, still there is mind left, wet, and one becomes in the state of mind-less being. asanna-satta. If such notions appear while living in a human existance, such people are ignorant of perception and fatal material(istic). -> the danger)

Like quoted already here before.

Quote
Where water, earth,
fire, & wind
have no footing:
There the stars don't shine,
   the sun isn't visible.
There the moon doesn't appear.
There darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
   a brahman through sagacity,
   has realized [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
   from bliss & pain,
      he is freed.

http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than_en.html


Beyond time and space, no moving and no stand... those are all expressions of Nibbana.

Quote
Refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha, Beyond all directions.

Only when you've thoroughly trained yourself to practice the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma can you reliably act as your own refuge.[e.g. having reached the Path, no more doubting the Gems, the training, through direct perceiving release.] Your mind becomes less quick to reverse itself, and less inclined to cause harm. This is why, in the Buddha's injunction to be your own refuge, he equates it with taking the Dhamma as refuge, defining both in internal terms: the practice of the four types of right mindfulness, which in turn function as the themes of right concentration, the culminating factor of the path.

Quote
"And how does a monk live with himself as his island, himself as his refuge, with no other as his refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, with no other as his refuge? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves… mind in & of itself… mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. … For those who, now or when I am gone, live with themselves as their island, themselves as their refuge, with no other as their refuge; with the Dhamma as their island, the Dhamma as their refuge, not with another as their refuge, will be my foremost monks: those who are desirous of training."

— DN 16


Once the path is completely internalized and developed, it opens to the ultimate refuge of the deathless. The path doesn't cause the deathless — if the deathless were caused, it wouldn't be deathless, for it would die when its causes ran out — but the practice of the path leads to the deathless, in the same way that a road leading to the Grand Canyon doesn't cause the Grand Canyon to be, but following it can take you there. That's why the path is called the path: It takes you to where you want to go.

So, all in all, the act of going for refuge occurs on three levels: external, internal, and — beyond external and internal — the level of nibbāna. These three levels can be summarized in two different ways: in terms of what they protect you from, and in terms of what they depend on to protect you.

In terms of what they protect you from: The first level protects you from the unskillful actions of others; the second level, from your own unskillful actions; and the third level, from the results of all actions, skillful and not. After all, even skillful actions don't last forever. They can provide long-term happiness, but long-term isn't forever. Only when you've reached the dimension beyond time are you totally free from the vagaries of time. Only then is your happiness totally secure.


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Offline ground

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2017, 10:03:15 pm »
Another thought:
The German philosopher Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) posited space and time as basic conditions for perceptions inhering in the subject. I.e. human perceptions are possible only through these a priori given conditionings in humans.
'Movement' actually is just an expression of time since to perceive movement is to indirectly impute time which is a basic subjective condition.
So your thesis "There is only space and movement" could be expressed as 'There is only space and time' as well and actually it would be better expressed this way since when there is only space then there is nothing that could move.
'There is only space and time' is however a solipsistic view since it negates everything other than the subject and affirms only the subject's own basic conditioning.

Yes, this is a philosophical can of worms, particularly when you factor in notions of objectivity and subjectivity. 

The extraordinary feature of Kant is that he was not fixated on the 'objectivity vs subjectivity' division as inherently existing. He wasn't a 'classical' idealist in the context of space and time. For him objectivity was real and possible exactly because the conditioning for time and space, which are basic intuitions, exist on the human subject's side.  Seeing it this way real objectivity is a specific human feature because it is based on the specific human apparatus of perception which makes it possible to perceive the world around us this way. Thus a human feature of perception is objectivity and is the reason why science becomes possible in the human sphere. There would be no science without real objectivity.

You could say that objectively there would be no movement without the passage of time, you could also say that subjectively there would be no sense of time passing without the observation of movement.
Kant says that movement is objectively real because humans have this sense of time innately. So he is not taking an empirical stance. Time exists a priori in the human sphere due to specific human consciousness.
So to wonder whether time and space exist independent of the human subject is useless and meaningless because it would amount to absurdly assume that a human could leave its own sphere to check.

Basically Kant's view in this context resonates very well with dzogchen view. Of course Kant and dzogchen use different vocabulary but the common feature is that both posit the human sphere itself being the source of the mode of appearance of the objects of perception without committing the error of falling to the extreme of classical idealism like 'mind only' or similar irrational philosophies.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 10:34:41 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2017, 12:58:50 am »
Both, how ever, are just philosophies. Food for the mind, to become, origin and nature of thesis and antithesis not seen. Moving on, Mindless. Delight in features of being.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 01:04:15 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: There is only space and movement
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2017, 01:52:40 am »
Both, how ever, are just philosophies. Food for the mind, to become, origin and nature of thesis and antithesis not seen. Moving on, Mindless. Delight in features of being.
yours is the irrational talk of a blind believer.

Kant's philosophy is an analytical philosophy covering reason and objective realizations that are the basis for realization in pure mathematics and in pure science.

As to dzogchen one has to differentiate between its conceptual view and dzogchen as such. The former is a decriptive non-analytical philosophy but dzogchen as such is spontaneously present liberation.
Dzogchen as such, i.e. liberation, can be accessed only through direct introduction after having become familiar with its conceptual view but conceptual understanding of its conceptual view does not entail a conceptual view concordant with dzogchen as such. Why? Because dzogchen as such is being lucidly empty of everything and nothing.

Kant's philosophy and dzogchen conceptual view are completely different philosophies. When I said that there is resonance in the context of the phenomena space and time this meant that these philosophies are not contradicting each other as to this context.

Dzogchen as such however is completely beyond comparison because of being lucidly empty of everything and nothing.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:04:23 am by ground »

 


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