Author Topic: What is Nirvana?  (Read 25092 times)

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #420 on: March 18, 2015, 02:11:07 am »
It's also good to remember that we're on a Buddhist forum, where the Vedic notion of "universal self" (Brahman=Atman) only further muddies the waters.

Offline Roope

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #421 on: March 18, 2015, 02:46:08 am »
It's also good to remember that we're on a Buddhist forum, where the Vedic notion of "universal self" (Brahman=Atman) only further muddies the waters.

I said nothing about what you are talking about.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #422 on: March 18, 2015, 03:12:10 am »
And likewise I said nothing about what you said, but pointing out that I posted the excerpt in reference to Sri Ramani's use of the term "universal self" --- in other words, he wasn't exactly clear about how he was using it, not to mention that his choice of username gives the impression that his understanding might be more informed through the Vedic tradition than Buddhism.

Offline Roope

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #423 on: March 18, 2015, 03:24:27 am »
Sorry, my bad then.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #424 on: March 18, 2015, 03:27:18 am »
It's okay... I can see how my statement could have been taken that way  :)

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #425 on: March 18, 2015, 06:14:27 am »
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'All things', says the Buddha, 'are not two.' Here the Buddha details the interdependent nature of all conceptual dualisms including the dualism of nirvana and samsara; enlightened and unenlightened. That is, reality objectified into polarized dualistic pairings is not 'reality-as-it-is', 'for the condition of existence is not of mutually-exclusive character'. Thus, like all discriminated dichotomies, the concept nirvana cannot exist apart from its counterpart sarpsara. The Buddha has 'answered' Mahamati's question by deconstructing any objectifications he may harbour about liberation itself: liberated knowledge is knowledge free of conceptual distinctions. The undermining of nirvana and samsara as static dualistic entities to be attained or rejected is a pivotal Mahayana Buddhist deconstructive strategy that serves as the cornerstone of the logical demolition of dichotomous views in Nagarjuna's MMK and the deconstructive dynamic behind much of Dogen's phenomenological non-dual expressions.


I find this summary interesting in that "dualism" is rarely if ever discussed in The Suttas, or in the Theravadin Commentaries. 

Also, in physical science the concept of pairing of particles by spin, also states of matter by charge is also well established and verified by experiment.:

http://press.web.cern.ch/backgrounders/matterantimatter-asymmetry

The God Particle Explained:  http://www.aspenideas.org/session/god-particle?gclid=CMv5uuX_scQCFdgQgQodZFwAkQ

...also known as The Higgs Boson.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 06:26:06 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #426 on: March 18, 2015, 07:17:18 am »
Hi Ron.

I find this summary interesting in that "dualism" is rarely if ever discussed in The Suttas, or in the Theravadin Commentaries. 

Yeah, it's more of a Mahayana thing --- for example, the summary is specific to the Lanka and Nirvana Sutra, not the Suttas or Pali commentaries.

Also, in physical science the concept of pairing of particles by spin, also states of matter by charge is also well established

I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling when it comes quantum physics and whether it should be cited as proof (or not proof) of any particular Buddhist position, ect. There's still much research that needs to be done, so maybe a little bit of caution is order, if for no other reason than not putting ourselves or anyone else in the position of having to back track --- for example, how many theories have risen and then fallen in the past ten years?

Back in 2011, a survey was taken of various physicists and mathematicians at a conference on "Quantum Physics and the Nature of Reality" in Austria. Thirty-three of the world's top experts were asked to list their favorite interpretation of quantum mechanics. The result? Not a single one of the interpretations could even garner a simple majority vote. Ninety years after the theory was first developed, there's still no consensus on what quantum physics actually means.

With that said, the subject of matter/antimatter asymmetry is certainly interesting.

Offline Sriramani

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #427 on: March 18, 2015, 08:49:48 am »
And likewise I said nothing about what you said, but pointing out that I posted the excerpt in reference to Sri Ramani's use of the term "universal self" --- in other words, he wasn't exactly clear about how he was using it, not to mention that his choice of username gives the impression that his understanding might be more informed through the Vedic tradition than Buddhism.

True! I am a fan of Vedic tradition as well as Buddhism.  Although I am no expert on Buddhist history, I believe the Buddha may also have been influenced by Vedic tradition.  I apologize if mixing terminology seemed unclear. Although the terms are different, I believe they both represent the goal of meditation, which is enlightenment. However, there is certainly always room for debate in semantics, which is why the word is not the thing. :)

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #428 on: March 18, 2015, 10:59:44 am »
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DK: Back in 2011, a survey was taken of various physicists and mathematicians at a conference on "Quantum Physics and the Nature of Reality" in Austria. Thirty-three of the world's top experts were asked to list their favorite interpretation of quantum mechanics. The result? Not a single one of the interpretations could even garner a simple majority vote. Ninety years after the theory was first developed, there's still no consensus on what quantum physics actually means.

With that said, the subject of matter/antimatter asymmetry is certainly interesting.

Yes.  I am more of a Standard Model follower myself, but not because I do not believe that quantum physics is valid.  Were it not for its principles we wouldn't be talking to each other as we are now over a collection (network) of computers.

The second article regarding The God Particle ( Higgs Boson)  and the interconnectedness of our universe is no longer theory.  CERN experiments have verified its existence last year.

As for Buddhist acceptance of physical theories, it all goes back to Buddha's advice given in His Charter of Free Inquiry, The Kalama Sutta.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #429 on: March 18, 2015, 11:41:07 am »
Ron, I wasn't speaking about the acceptance of any given theory, but the very behavior that the New Age movement has been criticized for through the years --- what I find most funny is the fact that Buddhists have been doing the same thing for the same number of years, but they've never been criticized for it:

https://books.google.com/books?id=SghdYBbMds0C&pg=PA520#v=onepage&q&f=false

Some things have changed since Ken Wilbur wrote his critique, but there's one thing that hasn't changed: the shotgun of generalization --- the New Age writers continue to run around "locked and loaded" and there are Buddhists who tend to do the same thing.

---------

PS: I forgot to mention this earlier, but beginning in November 2014 it would appear that some aspects of the Higgs Boson findings were being challenged --- it's all Greek to me, but maybe you'll make more sense out of it all than I can:

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/19802/20141108/shocking-cern-may-not-have-discovered-elusive-higgs-boson-particle-after-all.htm
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 01:34:55 pm by Dharmakara, Reason: added PS note »

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #430 on: March 18, 2015, 12:26:34 pm »
True! I am a fan of Vedic tradition as well as Buddhism.  Although I am no expert on Buddhist history, I believe the Buddha may also have been influenced by Vedic tradition.  I apologize if mixing terminology seemed unclear. Although the terms are different, I believe they both represent the goal of meditation, which is enlightenment. However, there is certainly always room for debate in semantics, which is why the word is not the thing. :)

Hi Sriamani. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Buddhism has been influenced by Vedic tradition, but that both traditions were clearly drinking from the same well, so to speak --- either of these positions have the tendency to invoke responses that can be best described as immature in nature, where some practitioners seem hell-bent to ensure that Buddhism remains unique to itself.

Strangely enough, this can even occur when mentioning the existence of a commonly shared Indo-Aryan eschatology --- for example, on the few occasions I've mentioned this on the forum, it has been received as if I had hurled some imaginary insult at the history of the Buddhist tradition LOL

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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« Reply #431 on: March 18, 2015, 05:18:54 pm »
Quote
DK:  PS: "I forgot to mention this earlier, but beginning in November 2014 it would appear that some aspects of the Higgs Boson findings were being challenged..."


Yes.  It seems we continue further down the rabbit hole of physics.  Techni-Higgs and Techni-quarks are just another step.  CERN was just funded to increase collider and detector power to get to the bottom of this, dark matter, and dark energy. 

As Roseanna Roseannadanna's mother used to advise her:  "Roseanna Roseannadanna, if it isn't one thing, it's another thing!"  Roseana Roseannadanna, It's always something!"



Radner with actor-husband Gene Wilder in the film Haunted Honeymoon, 1986
Born   Gilda Susan Radner
June 28, 1946
Detroit, Michigan, U.S.
Died   May 20, 1989 (aged 42)
Los Angeles, California, U.S.
Cause of death


What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #432 on: March 18, 2015, 06:27:29 pm »
Willy Wonka - You should never never doubt what nobody is sure about

Offline Solodris

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #433 on: August 09, 2016, 06:30:41 pm »
My own personal experience of Nirvana is the meditative attainment of the intellect having unconditional access to a blissful tranquil state of being no longer possessing sensual desires that are ultimately unsatisfactory. Correct me if my perception on this concept is wrong.

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: What is Nirvana?
« Reply #434 on: August 10, 2016, 02:34:06 am »
My own personal experience of Nirvana is the meditative attainment of the intellect having unconditional access to a blissful tranquil state of being no longer possessing sensual desires that are ultimately unsatisfactory. Correct me if my perception on this concept is wrong.

Nope. It's a good description of what happened to me too. I might not use those exact words as I can't handle double negatives well, and you really need to use 'not' this and 'not not' that if you are to try to recreate the experience.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

 


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