Author Topic: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?  (Read 283 times)

Offline Arkena

  • Member
  • Posts: 53
    • View Profile
So this question is difficult to know where to ask as it is a christian-budhhist question...

Does emptiness of independamt  existamce exist as a teaching within christianity?

Given the depth of this teaching is hard to imagine no other religion has realised this truth lol

 :pray:

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2088
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 11:46:44 pm »
There is no other religion but maybe other religions have applied designators different from 'emptiness'.
What is more important however is that emptiness of true existence can be established by means of rational analysis which is independent of religion. So one does not have to believe anything to validly know emptiness for oneself.

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 01:08:07 am »
Please explain how one rationally comes to the realization of emptiness and its full meaning. Thank you.

As for the original question, this concept can actually be found in other religions and religious philosophies under a variety of terms, but not always as entirely mainstream.

The idea is explicitly present in Biblical analogies such as references to people as shards of pottery" and many other things when read carefully. The idea of pure appearance and sporadic generation of instances is also frequent in scriptures but not emphasized or usually entirely clear to people but appears in various philosophical discourses and exegesis and at times among esoteric and mystical branches. The various religions are not too different from each other usually, which might be expected since himan beings typically start out dealing with reality and making reference to it before falling into disputes over terminologies and symbols.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 01:17:31 am »
Biblical Christianity does not explicitly teach emptiness because it is a doctrine of love. The term 'emptiness' ('kenosis') is only found in Philippians 2:7, in relation to Jesus.
Quote
but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.

http://biblehub.com/philippians/2-7.htm

Biblical Christianity contained teachings of a 'merged self' but not of emptiness. For example:
Quote
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/16-24.htm

Quote
so it is with Christ's body. We are many parts of one body, and we all belong to each other.

http://biblehub.com/romans/12-5.htm

The Gospel of Thomas is not Biblical but probably the most authentic gospel, which teaches a kind of emptiness, as follows:
Quote
77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

The non-Biblical The Apocryphon of James is very good. It states:
Quote
Verily, I say unto you, none of those who fear death will be saved; for the kingdom belongs to those who put themselves to death.... Remember my cross and my death, and you will live!

http://gnosis.org/naghamm/jam.html


 :namaste:




Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2017, 01:47:20 am »
Original Taoism also has indicators of emptiness although is not totally free from self:

Quote
Return to the state of the uncarved block. When the block is carved, it becomes useful.

Empty yourself of everything.
Let the mind become still.
The ten thousand things rise and fall
while the Self watches their return.
They grow and flourish and then
return to the source.

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
It is the center hole that makes it
useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it
useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore benefit comes from what is
there;
Usefulness from what is not there.

http://www.dankalia.com/more/taoteching.pdf

Quote
Do not seek fame. Do not make plans. Do not be
absorbed by activities. Do not think that you know.
Be aware of all that is and dwell in the infinite.
Wander where there is no path. Be all that heaven
gave you, but act as though you have received nothing.
Be empty, that is all.

The mind of a perfect man is like a mirror. It
grasps nothing. It expects nothing. It reflects but
does not hold. Therefore, the perfect man can act
without effort.

http://www.eheart.com/TAO/CTchapters-small.pdf


 :namaste:

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 01:49:51 am »
Great work!

Offline Rahul

  • Member
  • Posts: 157
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 02:36:51 am »

Original Taoism also has indicators of emptiness although is not totally free from self:


Good to know that, VisuddhiRaptor. I have never studied anything about Taoism. However, regarding the self, I have a question and I would be glad to know more. It is said that the concept of no-self doesn't mean whether there is self or not. Some say that Buddha refused to answer this question. Instead he just said that this is not self that is not self - the body is not self, the consciousness is not self and so on. Correct me if i am wrong here. No-self is the area of my confusion.

So, how can we say whether Buddhism is 'free from self'?

 :anjali:

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2088
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 03:41:45 am »
Is Taoism a religion? Thought it is a philosophy that was turned into a religion later when ignorant people got involved.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 374
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 04:02:57 am »
...regarding the self, I have a question and I would be glad to know more. It is said that the concept of no-self doesn't mean whether there is self or not. Some say that Buddha refused to answer this question.

Thank you Rahul. From a Pali perspective, I recall this was discussed elsewhere on Free Sangha, in particular SN 44.10 to the wanderer Vacchagotta. Here, it appears the Buddha refused to answer the confused questions of the confused wanderer Vacchagotta only because Vacchagotta was not ready to understand. It seems to be a feature of the Pali suttas that the Buddha & his monks did not teach anatta (not-self) to all followers & all listeners.

Quote
Instead he just said that this is not self that is not self - the body is not self, the consciousness is not self and so on. Correct me if i am wrong here. No-self is the area of my confusion. So, how can we say whether Buddhism is 'free from self'?

The Pali suttas do seem to explicitly say all things without exception are not-self (anatta; AN 3.134; Dhp 279); only elements (MN 115; MN 62) & the whole world is void (sunnata) of self (SN 35.85).

The Pali suttas however do not deny the delusion, wrong view or mental formation of the 'self idea' (SN 22.81; SN 5.10; SN 23.2), which arises as a result of ignorance or dependent origination (SN 12.2). This idea of 'self' the Pali sutta calls a 'disease' (Ud 3.10; MN 140; etc) and the arising of suffering (SN 5.10; SN 12.15; etc).

Quote
Quote
This world is burning.
Afflicted by contact,
it calls disease a 'self.'

Ud 3.10 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.3.10.than.html


Kind regards  :namaste:

Offline The Artis Magistra

  • Member
  • Posts: 455
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 08:37:55 am »
Is Taoism a religion? Thought it is a philosophy that was turned into a religion later when ignorant people got involved.

Yeah, its a religion, ignorant people are now.

Offline Lobster

  • Member
  • Posts: 1341
    • View Profile
Re: What other religions have realised the teaching of emptiness?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 02:31:04 am »
You might find Meister Eckhart Christian mysticism discuses emptiness
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meister_Eckhart

Some forms of vedanta explore emptiness

Jewish mysticim beyond Daath becomes increasingly empty
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/nok/q9.txt

Fana or annihilation in Sufi Islam goes into an emptiness of emptiness.
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/17878/is-there-a-common-ground-between-buddhism-and-islam

Hope you find something useful to throw away  :teehee:

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal