Author Topic: Why buddhism?  (Read 391 times)

Offline ground

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 08:32:01 pm »
... Johann is unable to see the difference between belief and validly knowing for oneself.
Why is that so? Because being a believer his ideas are caused by written and heard words exclusively but not by investigation 'to the very heart of things'.


Hey! Ground,
I got the impression from previous discussions that you were not a great fan of the Kalama Sutta.  :wink1:

Hi
Actually the opposite! Why? Since the Kalama sutta has inpired me to systematize the way how to come to know for oneself.

This would not have been the case if the Kalama sutta weren't an outright appeal to belief - which for me is unacceptable - on the one hand and if it did not stress the importance of knowing for oneself on the other hand.

Beyond that the Kalama sutta shows very good that what is said therein strongly depends on the audience it is addressed to since the buddha clearly appeals to individual rational analysis on other occasions:
Quote
Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 11:12:08 pm »
"being a island" for one self, the Buddha talk to his Monks and here to those knowing the path: having reached the stream at least. So far to:

Quote from: Ground
Beyond that the Kalama sutta shows very good that what is said therein strongly depends on the audience it is addressed to since the buddha clearly appeals to individual rational analysis on other occasions

Of cource the teachings can be also so selected that they are totally wrong for one which is in cases of overestimation of oneself easy the case.

And it simply a lie that ground values "Actually the opposite!", which can be seen by even placing him self over the Buddha and called his disciples to teach such for their bellies purpose, reading his undertaking to miscredit the juwels for the sake of higher himself and reasoning to claim to be an Arahat himself.

So that post is just a strategical one to be able to offend the juwels further.
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Offline ground

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 11:16:13 pm »
"being a island" for one self, the Buddha talk to his Monks and here to those knowing the path: having reached the stream at least.
Where does your path lead to?

If there is an aim worthwhile to pursue then that aim is based on rational analysis not on belief. And if this aim is based on rational analysis then the means to realize it are based on rational analysis too.

Of cource the teachings can be also so selected that they are totally wrong for one which is in cases of overestimation of oneself easy the case.
The suttas are subject to rational analysis in the context of one's rational aim.

And it simply a lie that ground values "Actually the opposite!", which can be seen by even placing him self over the Buddha ...
There is nothing that would not be subject to rational analysis.

So that post is just a strategical one to be able to offend the juwels further.
you follow your type of belief buddhism and deify a figure of narratives and the objects that arise in your mind when seeing the words of the suttas. That's fine if you realize your own individual aims through that.
Since individuals differ, aims differ too. And since aims differ, the means by which those are realized differ too.

Quote
... I now answer the question 'Why buddhism?' from my perspective (feel free to answer it from your perspective):

1. Because buddhism can be rationally applied based on valid knowledge just like a science.

2. Because buddhism can be applied if a persistent unease is observed that spoils too much in life (which actually is the condition for being interested in buddhism at all).

3. Because buddhism can focus on cessation of unease exclusively and therefore can be based on valid knowledge through direct perception and does not have to rely on speculative belief.

4. Because buddhism can follow the scientific approach: logical hypothesis -> experiment -> valid theory that can be applied to modify reality.


Johann,

I would like to appeal to you to investigate why your realization of your aims depends on others sharing your view and beliefs.

Why isn't it sufficient for you 'to know for yourself' as the buddha has suggested in the Kalama sutta?

Are you actually in doubt and do you need the affirmation of others to overcome your doubt?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:23:46 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 02:53:47 am »
Ground is the one who is sitting next the refrigerator, hold on everyting, mostly on his ideas, does not go into the battle, would die within a week leading the holly life or run frigen as a child, and tell others about his freedom
, wisdom and liberation, the first livingroom Arahat. Believe or try to think so far, you are no match even for many young novices with your thought, wisdom and secured faith/wisdom. Talker. Only a fool would find himself given a favor by a usual Kalamas approching priest.

It's the main messing in this Sutta: don't go after those who just talk. As told: close your door from outside, don't take anything aside the eight things with you, not even right, friends, papers and show how far you liberation goes. Not even to think about putting it really under a test.

So what does Ground like to tell one who did, does and do? As already told, Ground makes him known as "smart child" or like the donky running behind the cows, no even try to rin infront at the side: "I am also a cow, I am even a leading cow." That is what everybody can see.
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Offline philboyd

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2017, 06:01:30 am »
With much respect, what is the point of such well reasoned arguments if not for the belief that some might ascend to your position?
Peace

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2017, 07:42:55 am »
To be a littel challenced to be simply honest to oneself, since that is the first and last step on a path to rightous awakening, and one does not really always challenge possible defilements by one self?

Sometimes it's wiser to let one really be challenged by all means then to escape as usual in meta discussion by defilements defense and look at the feared bottom of truth. "Do I have really gained even a little liberation? What am I really able to let go of?"

So it's importand to seek for guides who have loosen and abounded fetter and defilements and this can be best seen and observed by their way of livelihood and their openess in regard of letting others know him well, his generosity, virtue,... way of life so that they do not need to invest in him blindly which might hae reasons why he does protect his image behind just words.

It is of course made for those who are able to get healed, and there is reason why there are some, even if just one, ascend to a real refuge in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and leave own ideas about real benefit behind. There is no hope or believe that many are able to, and those who get the medicin who are not possible be healed, got the medicine because of those who actually can.

If asking if my person believes that Ground will ever ascend to Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha and become out of having direct percived a devoted disciple or even another Arahat, not really. He would need to face suffering first and his real and near limits and he is much to scary to put it under a prove and believes meta thinking will be or is his liberation.

But what about Deva Philboyd? Did he again appeated an raised a question out of very subtile and thoughtful purpose and gained the reward of a skillful deed even here and now?

So what is his ascendent now, here and yet?

May he answer how he feels fit,
Why Buddhism, Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha,
And we might be not only quit.

Using riddles and rhymes,
Will some times prevent fools,
To uses Juwels for crimes.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 07:57:29 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2017, 01:45:12 pm »
...
It's the main messing in this Sutta: don't go after those who just talk. ...

No, the main message is: don't go after anybody but go after what you know for yourself.

And how does one come to know for oneself?

Quote
... be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other ... Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2017, 01:59:51 pm »
No, the main message is: don't go after anybody but go after what you know for yourself.

And how does one come to know for oneself?

 :jinsyx: :jinsyx: :jinsyx: :namaste:

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2017, 03:07:39 pm »
Cheat further and turn around and speak against your previous try to gain followers, and by happy that you have found an equal shorttime friend, same kind here, for a while: " Thinking now is may chance..." and act in falsehood to sometimes merely to one self of more often in regard of others. You see, you attract them, have "fun" but don't forget there is higher then  :teehee:  :lmfao: not to speak that the wise would never take  :jinsyx: and  :pray: serious from them, not to speak of  :fu: how poor, those still attracted...

Quote
When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.


It's mostly good to leave a place of assembling of "misfortune", people who are bound to each other due they actions together, again and again, and after having given what is needed for the last with possibilities, who have a possibility to escape. It's not possible to chance the middle of Samsara, just to reach a stick for those on the outer side already.

May those capable to grasp and understand the Dhamma, always come across support and those capable to lead them out, even fallen into the most worse circumstance, far away from where the Dhanma ever growed and has ground to get firm and supportive roots, conditions.

Beings are heirs of their actions, owner of their action, bound to their actions, and released through them. (Sure, those dwelling in "emptiness" or the "Arahats" here not, they will even not realize their heritage.)

With karuna and much metta, (of course nobody can benefit from such direct, but by rejoicing and take part on the performed merits done by such a declaration, or meritious deeds, if still such.)


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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2017, 07:35:38 pm »
" Thinking now is may chance..."

Nyom Haanze. Have you ever considered using 'self-reflection' (what Buddhism calls 'wise-reflection') that Buddhism may not be for you? Buddhism is for freedom. To be light of mind & free (rather than using a whip to chase imaginary shadows).

 Nyom. You know I only visit this forum when you have been misbehaving on other forums. :pray: :namaste:

Offline ground

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Re: Why buddhism?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2017, 10:49:32 pm »
...
It's the main messing in this Sutta: don't go after those who just talk. ...

No, the main message is: don't go after anybody but go after what you know for yourself.

And how does one come to know for oneself?

Quote
... be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other ... Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html



...
Quote
When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.
...

yes and your quote leaves open what qualities and how to come to know for oneself. But my quote shows, namely 'investigate to the very heart of things', i.e. apply rational analysis.

your fault simply is that you are running after people telling them what qualties they should adopt. Thus you are ignoring that they should come to know for themselves.

 


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