Why I ditched Buddhism

[Disillusioned]

Dear friends,

I recently returned from an 18 month stay at an Ajahn Chah branch monastery, during which I was an Anagarika for about a year. I left because I became disillusioned with Buddhism and now I would like to share why:

1. There's no evidence for the existence of kamma. This is the idea that good results follow good actions. This certainly was not true in my case, however. I practiced mindfulness all the time and offered meals to monks, which supposedly make me lots of merit. But my meditation practice declined the longer I stayed at the monastery. Furthermore, I saw this in the monks as well. I met a monk who had been in robes for 15 years and this guy was about to lose his mind. He was nervous, tense, practically shaking. This guy couldn't even be alone anymore! Where's all the merit he had made during his 15 years as a monk?

When I used to ask these questions at the monastery, I never got good answers back. I would hear things like: "It takes a long time for the kamma to ripen, maybe even lifetimes, so you can't expect to see quick results." This does not satisfy me. If I am not seeing any positive results, and in fact I am seeing negative ones, what would make me suspect that good results will come later? There's no evidence suggesting that!

2. I question the validity of "mystical experiences." Buddhist masters who apparently have such experiences provide a great source of faith to practioners, because these masters make it seem possible to actually achieve enlightened states. I was fortunate enough to actually meet the supposed arahant Pa Auk Sayadaw. But to me his experiences are not evidence for the truth of Buddhism. I don't doubt that he has the experiences he talks about, but it does not follow that Buddism is therefore true.

I'd like to quote a passage from Betrand Russel's essay Mysticism. “From a scientific point of view, we can make no distinction between the man who eats little and sees heaven and the man who drinks much and sees snakes. Each is in an abnormal physical condition, and therefore has abnormal perceptions. Normal perceptions, since they have to be useful in the struggle for life, must have some correspondence with fact; but in abnormal perceptions there is no reason to expect such correspondence, and their testimony, therefore, cannot outweigh that of normal perception.”

I agree with this. Paw Auk is someone who, by worldly and scientific standards, has led an incredibly extreme and abnormal lifestyle. It’s no surprise that someone like him would perceive phenomena such as his past lives and the emptiness of experience. But I can’t trust those perceptions. They could easily be hallucinations.

I say this because the body and the brain have not evolved to sit meditation 18 hours a day. That’s not they’re function, so under those circumstances, who knows what kinds of perceptions they could produce, especially in someone who has had religious views conditioned into him from a very young age.

3. Buddhist monks are repressed! I didn't take Frued notion of repression seriously until I spent a year and a half living with monks. These guys did not actually seem to be free from lust, they just seemed to stuff them down and deny themselves of pleasure in life. Personally I thought it made them irritable, tense and extremely unhappy. Many of them just seemed dead.

I went to the monastery hoping for Buddhism to bring me happiness. All it let to was more suffering. And that's why I ditched Buddhism!

I'm curious to hear if anyone has any questions or comments. 

[Bodhisatta2012]

Just recently had a similar setback, but for different reasons.

Kamma for some reason is easy for me to see.  Perhaps I look at it differently than you.  My goal was not to obtain merrit, but instead to do my best to live my life in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path, albeit imperfectly, but my goal was/is "progress not perfection".  Bob Thurmin pointed out in one of his lectures that perfection takes multiple life-times.  My goal is to intentionally act beneficially and the kamma vippakha will take care of itself.  There is little value in keeping a point score record, because I have no idea what kamma vippakha I earned in my thousands of previous lives.  I must not have done too badly, because I wound up in the human realm this time around.

The same can be said for you, my friend.

[Wonky Badger]

Dear friends,

I recently returned from an 18 month stay at an Ajahn Chah branch monastery, during which I was an Anagarika for about a year. I left because I became disillusioned with Buddhism and now I would like to share why:

1. There's no evidence for the existence of kamma. *snip*

2. I question the validity of "mystical experiences."  *snip*

3. Buddhist monks are repressed! *snip*

1. What religion offers evidence? Buddhism is one of the few, maybe even the only one, that offers you the tools and encourages you to discover the evidence yourself. It's very hard to make conclusions about positive and negative results. If you want to get fit and go running and lose your breath and feel beat, or if you go to the gym and wake up the next day with aching muscles, do you see that as negative results and go back to the couch? Bad examples maybe, but if there is rebirth and we have lived many lives before, we might have some negative karma to pay off before noticing the positive effects we're creating right now. Doing what is good and doing what feels good are two different things. It's entirely up to each and everyone of us to decide which we prioritize. And of course they can coexist.

2. Can't really comment on this. I accept that I don't understand everything and I just let it stay at that.

3. Surely not all of them? The fact is that some are not cut out for the monastic life even though they ended up there and others haven't found their "groove" yet. I'm pretty sure there are monks that are very happy with their lives.

[santamonicacj]

I question the validity of "mystical experiences."

I'll take Bill W.'s (of Alcoholics Anonymous fame) "hot flash" experience as an example. Before it he was a hopeless drunk. Afterward he was sober for the rest of his life. Additionally he used the insights gained to create an organization that has helped literally millions of people all over the world stay sober through their own spiritual growth, and he did it without any motive of power, prestige, or money.

By its fruit a tree is known. I take his experience as valid.

As for Buddhadharma, that is a bit trickier. I hope that it's validity will become equally apparent in my lifetime on a public scale. So far it ain't been easy!

[Hanzze]

Picking Mangoes

If a mango is five meters off the ground and we want it, we can't use a ten-meter picking pole to pick it, because it's too long. We can't use a two-meter picking pole either, because it's too short.

Don't go thinking that a person with a PhD. has an easy time practicing the Dhamma because he knows so much. Don't go thinking that way. Sometimes people with a PhD. are too long.

Rubbing Fire Sticks

The practice is like a man rubbing fire sticks together. He's heard people say, "Take two pieces of bamboo and rub them together, and you'll get fire." So he takes two pieces of bamboo and rubs them together. But his heart is impatient. After rubbing them together a bit he wants there to be fire. His heart keeps pushing for the fire to come quickly, but the fire just won't come. He starts getting lazy, so he stops to rest. Then he tries rubbing the sticks together again for a little bit, and then stops to rest. Whatever warmth there was disappears, because the warmth isn't connected.

If he keeps acting like this, stopping whenever he gets tired — although just being tired isn't so bad: His laziness gets mixed in too, so the whole thing goes to pieces. He decides that there is no fire, he doesn't want fire after all, so he gives up. He stops. He won't rub the sticks anymore. Then he goes about announcing, "There is no fire. You can't get it this way. There is no fire. I've already tried."

*smile*

[Hanzze]

All it let to was more suffering.

That is actually a great experience, why didn't you look where it is coming from?

When we are busy, distracted and habitually cover our suffering with painting color above it, we are not a little aware of it. Would you say that you can live without stilling your endless desires now and aside of practicing in peace?
What does it (you) take to be happy now?

*smile*

[ground]

1. There's no evidence for the existence of kamma.

Really? Well I just care about habits and their effects because this is what I can validly observe.

2. I question the validity of "mystical experiences." Buddhist masters who apparently have such experiences provide a great source of faith to practioners, because these masters make it seem possible to actually achieve enlightened states. I was fortunate enough to actually meet the supposed arahant Pa Auk Sayadaw. But to me his experiences are not evidence for the truth of Buddhism. I don't doubt that he has the experiences he talks about, but it does not follow that Buddism is therefore true.

I am not into "mystical experiences." and this idea is not a reason for me to practice. I think the Buddha did not teach "This is the path leading to "mystical experiences.", right?

3. Buddhist monks are repressed! I didn't take Frued notion of repression seriously until I spent a year and a half living with monks. These guys did not actually seem to be free from lust, they just seemed to stuff them down and deny themselves of pleasure in life. Personally I thought it made them irritable, tense and extremely unhappy. Many of them just seemed dead.

I don't see any benefit in fabricating and projecting things onto others. Actually from my perspective this is one of the habits that have to be abandoned.

Kind regards

[Spiny le Norman]

I recently returned from an 18 month stay at an Ajahn Chah branch monastery, during which I was an Anagarika for about a year. I left because I became disillusioned with Buddhism and now I would like to share why:

I'm sorry that you didn't have a good experience.  But Buddhism has many traditions, and it may well be that another approach would suit you better.   As they say in England "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater".

Spiny

[Lobster]

Throwing out the baby with the Buddha water is always a good policy. 

1. There's no evidence for the existence of kamma.

This is a tendency not an inevitability
Monks and good people and innocent children meet bad ends
However being unskilful in friends, practice and environment can make bad situations more likely to result.
So most people are well aware of the existence of karma.

I met a monk who had been in robes for 15 years and this guy was about to lose his mind. He was nervous, tense, practically shaking. This guy couldn't even be alone anymore! Where's all the merit he had made during his 15 years as a monk?

You would have to ask his psychiatrist.
Like many monks he may not have started with a full set of screws.

When I used to ask these questions at the monastery, I never got good answers back.

Find a better monastery. Some are run by drunkards, pedophiles and the usual bunch of miscreants. Just as many are run by able and wise mentors and monks.

2. I question the validity of "mystical experiences."

Me too and I have had one or two . . .

You wish to be happy after a year and a half?
Some of us have practiced for decades and gone beyond euphoria to contentment.
Some are still working towards, stilling the monkey mind . . .

I suggest in all humility that you attempt to make others happy rather than your miserable self . . . 

I for one am glad you have seen some sense.
What is your next step?

[santamonicacj]

First of all, let us all respect your freedom of choice without criticism or expectation. Leave Dharma, go be a Christian, be an existentialist, do whatever you feel is best for YOU. After that then everything else can be a general discussion rather than a pressuring.

*****

1. There's no evidence for the existence of kamma.

Actually there is. It is not well articulated int he texts but "habit" is a facet of karma. We all have our habits we struggle with. We are, in fact, struggling with our own karma.

In the traditional texts it is under 'the seed of the act as cause for the act', or some sort of other obscure language. It means that if we do something we are prone to do it again. This not only covers negative habits like vices, but positive ones as well. Learning and accomplishments are also covered by this. Whether you learn a language, to play the piano, of get a law degree, you are "creating the karma to do xyz".

...this guy was about to lose his mind. He was nervous, tense, practically shaking. This guy couldn't even be alone anymore!

First of all HHDL has said that you have to be reasonably sane to start the practice, otherwise you can make it worse. Secondly it is possible to do it incorrectly and get a negative result. Thirdly, as my teacher admonished me, "Don't look at what other people can't do with Dharma and limit yourself."

But please follow your own karma to what is right for YOU!

[Monkey Mind]

Thank you for sharing your experiences, Disillusioned. I found myself formulating counter-arguments for each of your points, so at the very least your disillusionment has been a good tool to sharpen my own "faith". In the end, your life experiences and your path are yours, and not my place to argue.

I don't practice in the Ajahn Chah tradition, but over the last couple of years I have been a regular visitor to a monastery in that tradition. I have no intention of ordaining. (I don't think I am actually eligible in that tradition.)  But I find the bhikkhus and Ajahns to be very inspirational, especially because they are shockingly human and flawed, and the honesty with which they admit to and embrace their human flaws.

One of my favorite stories: I did not have enough time to cook a nice dana meal, so I brought a pizza. I had a moment alone in the kitchen with the Anagarika, and I apologized. "I know most supporters bring healthy food, I hope I am not offending anyone by bringing pizza." The Anagarika smiled a very wide smile, licked his lips, and said, "I wish more people would bring pizza. And your chocolate desserts are fantastic, feel free to bring more of those, too."

Sure, he modeled greed/ attachment to food/ using food as entertainment, but it was one of those precious moments when the novice monk appeared sincerely and openly flawed, I was very touched. One time last year I asked the Ajahn about the Christians media claims of impending Rapture; he admitted to me that despite his many years of Buddhist practice he still has a lot of prejudice against fundamental Christians. The talk wasn't about the validity or irrationality about the Christian beliefs, but about his own struggle to work with defilements. For me, a layperson who is loose with my 5th precept and variable in my practice, this type of discussion was golden.

I have no problem believing in either kamma or merit. I can't spit on the sidewalk without experiencing some kind of consequence; and the time I have spent meditating, developing Brahmavihara, and serving dana meals at monasteries have had invaluable positive consequences for my evolution as a human.

[DrJonno]

Dear Disillusioned,

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I am myself somewhat of a sceptical buddhist and I can sympathise with how you feel.  I hope that you don't abandon buddhism as a whole though and wish you well for the future.

It wasn't Cittaviveka was it?

Metta,

Jon

[pickledpitbull]

Disillusioned,

I’m sorry that you didn’t have a good experience.  Personally, I consider monastic living a Utopian ideal that we try to fulfill with humans and their accompanying flaws.  However, since you asked for feedback, here is my response to what you have given:

1. There's no evidence for the existence of kamma. This is the idea that good results follow good actions.
Not exactly.  It’s the idea that your actions have an effect.  You may not realize the effect right away, nor would you necessarily recognize the result of your actions.  For instance, you may not realize when you wash your clothes that the phosphates in your laundry soap are creating an algae bloom which is harming the ecosystem.  There’s more to it, but let’s move on for now.  I’m sure someone else will have input regarding karma.

This certainly was not true in my case, however. I practiced mindfulness all the time and offered meals to monks, which supposedly make me lots of merit. But my meditation practice declined the longer I stayed at the monastery.
Okay, two things here.  First, if you give a gift, then it needs to be given freely without expectation of getting something in return.  This goes for preparing meals for monks as well as giving birthday presents to your sister’s ungrateful brats.  Otherwise, it’s not a gift.  The merit is in the joy you receive by lovingly preparing nourishment to others.  What exactly were you expecting in return?

Second, why were you not able to meditate while preparing meals?  Are you under the impression that you have to be sitting in order to practice?  The meal preparation IS the practice.

Furthermore, I saw this in the monks as well. I met a monk who had been in robes for 15 years and this guy was about to lose his mind. He was nervous, tense, practically shaking. This guy couldn't even be alone anymore! Where's all the merit he had made during his 15 years as a monk?
Who says this monk has no merit?  The fact that he has a home and a supportive community is merit in itself.  How do you know that the man is not seriously ill, with Parkinson’s or some other condition?  Did you seize the opportunity to practice compassion towards this man?  Then you would have earned true merit.

When I used to ask these questions at the monastery, I never got good answers back. I would hear things like: "It takes a long time for the kamma to ripen, maybe even lifetimes, so you can't expect to see quick results." This does not satisfy me. If I am not seeing any positive results, and in fact I am seeing negative ones, what would make me suspect that good results will come later? There's no evidence suggesting that!
This is a continuation of my first response.  Maybe the (good) results were there, but you failed to see them.  On the other hand, some results do take time to be realized.  Consider all the efforts made by our forefathers, grandfathers, and parents for which our generation reaps the benefits.  They had no opportunity to see the results, but they made the effort anyway.

2. I question the validity of "mystical experiences." Buddhist masters who apparently have such experiences provide a great source of faith to practioners, because these masters make it seem possible to actually achieve enlightened states. I was fortunate enough to actually meet the supposed arahant Pa Auk Sayadaw. But to me his experiences are not evidence for the truth of Buddhism. I don't doubt that he has the experiences he talks about, but it does not follow that Buddism is therefore true.
I’m not familiar with this person, so I can’t comment on his particular experiences.  However, there are plenty of people walking around saying they’re Jesus, so maybe you should consider the source.  On the other hand, even if they’re not Jesus, it doesn’t negate the concept.

I'd like to quote a passage from Betrand Russel's essay Mysticism. “From a scientific point of view, we can make no distinction between the man who eats little and sees heaven and the man who drinks much and sees snakes. Each is in an abnormal physical condition, and therefore has abnormal perceptions. Normal perceptions, since they have to be useful in the struggle for life, must have some correspondence with fact; but in abnormal perceptions there is no reason to expect such correspondence, and their testimony, therefore, cannot outweigh that of normal perception.”
I think he’s saying the same thing – just because some guy says he’s Jesus, doesn’t make it so.

3. Buddhist monks are repressed! I didn't take Frued notion of repression seriously until I spent a year and a half living with monks. These guys did not actually seem to be free from lust, they just seemed to stuff them down and deny themselves of pleasure in life. Personally I thought it made them irritable, tense and extremely unhappy. Many of them just seemed dead.
First of all, Freud was the nutcase, not his patients.  Not all women are “hysterical” and not all men are perpetual perverts. 

To be truly focused, whether it be in pursuit of Dharma or a Doctorate, it helps to eliminate outside distractions.  This is the purpose of celibacy.  This doesn’t mean that anyone is denying himself pleasure, as he may be taking true pleasure in his work in the Sangha.  I doubt that any monk is being held captive; therefore, it must be assumed that each person has his own reasons for staying.

On the other hand, did you ever consider that it was your perception that they were tense and irritable?  And please don’t take offense, but maybe it was you?  Did you bring confrontation into the room with you?  Did you ask too many questions, like the toddler who constantly pleads “Why?” until his father snaps back “Because I said so!”?

I went to the monastery hoping for Buddhism to bring me happiness. All it let to was more suffering. And that's why I ditched Buddhism!
Well, that’s the crux of the situation, isn’t it?  You wanted something outside yourself to bring you happiness.  That’s just not going to happen anywhere, be it in a monastery, a marriage, or a career.  Maybe this is a good experience to reflect upon to gain insight into your expectations.  It seems that you demand a lot from your fellow man, without accepting that he may be just as flawed as he is good, or acknowledging that he might also be struggling.

If you wish to ditch Buddhism, I respect that.  This journey isn’t for everyone, and each of us has to find his own path in life.  I hope that we can remain friends, even if we have different beliefs.

Above all, I wish you Peace.
Donna

[Lobster]

But I find the bhikkhus and Ajahns to be very inspirational, especially because they are shockingly human and flawed, and the honesty with which they admit to and embrace their human flaws.

Me too.
Exactly so.

Even the Buddha, despite efforts at elevation was human.
The ability to be inspired or have other response to others behaviour is indicative of our inner journey.

We are not perfect.
Symbolically the Sangha represent idealisations.
Vajrayana takes this to extremes. That is their practice and deserves understanding.

Robes do not make you a Buddha
Hours of practice will not necessarily lead to rebirth in a Pureland.

A lot is where you start from. Humility and serving pizza sound a good place to be . . . 

[DrJonno]

First of all, Freud was the nutcase, not his patients.  Not all women are “hysterical” and not all men are perpetual perverts.  

:-)

I wonder whether this scepticism might be related to something in your childhood?

Only kidding.

Metta,

Jon