Author Topic: Amida is a real Buddha?  (Read 14009 times)

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #120 on: March 18, 2019, 06:19:32 am »
In that you are attempting for force the path into a concrete form, including some things and excluding others is materializing.

Ironically that is exactly what I'm challenging.  But you still haven't shown how this is "spiritual materialism", unless you have made up your own definition of it.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Chaz

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #121 on: March 18, 2019, 06:03:31 pm »
In that you are attempting for force the path into a concrete form, including some things and excluding others is materializing.

Ironically that is exactly what I'm challenging.  But you still haven't shown how this is "spiritual materialism", unless you have made up your own definition of it.

Not really.  I spent a number of years studying/practicing in the Shambhala tradition.  This was before the Sakyong had much material for the Mandala's teachers.  Most of these men and women had been students of Trungpa's some going back to the earliest days.  They taught a lot on the subject of SM.  Trungpa taught a great deal more on the subject then what you'll find in CTSM.  These teachers had heard most, if not all of it.  They passed it on to us.

Basically, any time you try to enforce an othodoxy, try to make Buddhism one thing and not another,  any time things should be this way and not that, you are giving ground makeing something static, material.  This, spiritual materialism.

And I read the book, too.  Back in those days, it was required reading.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 03:46:05 am by Chaz »

Offline Skylar

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #122 on: March 19, 2019, 08:33:43 am »
To answer the OP question - despite possible offenses to those who believe him to be a figment of imagination ...

... Yes. Amida  is a real Buddha.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 12:00:41 am by Skylar, Reason: Dyslexic fingers »
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Offline Zen44

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #123 on: March 19, 2019, 07:25:04 pm »
Which has no association with anything, Just Zen.
Dzogchen Teachings

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #124 on: March 21, 2019, 04:43:06 am »
... Yes. Amida is a real Buddha.

But you can't prove that, any more than you can prove God exists.  These are statements of belief, and not statements of fact. 
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Chaz

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #125 on: March 21, 2019, 05:04:59 pm »
... Yes. Amida is a real Buddha.

But you can't prove that, any more than you can prove God exists. 

Well, he doesn't have to.  No one's asked him, for one thing.  Someone who what interestest in challenging a belief would ask, rather than make a pronouncement.  You don't even give the guy a chance.  Kinda rude.  Disrespectful.

Quote
These are statements of belief, and not statements of fact.

Something to keep in mind here.  Buddhism is a religion - a system of beliefs.  Fact doesn't really enter into it.  Facts are for the courts.

If you want to abide in facts and call it Buddhism you are free to do so.  Lighten up and let others do the same with their beliefs.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 07:56:32 pm by Chaz »

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2019, 02:22:04 am »
Quote
Moderator Note:  I accidentally modified DL's post.  I put it back to where I remember ot geing.  So Sorry.


You don't even give the guy a chance.  Kinda rude.  Disrespectful.

That is the pot calling the kettle black.  You seem to confuse moderation with throwing your weight around here, always needing to be right, always needing to have the last word.

Something to keep in mind here.  Buddhism is a religion - a system of beliefs.  Fact doesn't really enter into it.  Facts are for the courts.

Now you are making pronouncements.  Buddhism is many different things, it certainly doesn't have to involve belief in the sense we are talking about here.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 03:18:10 pm by Chaz »
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Offline Skylar

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2019, 08:54:28 am »
Dairy Lama wrote:
"...it certainly doesn't HAVE to involve belief..."
(emphasis is mine)

So it (Buddhism) CAN involve belief...is that right?

Because it does for many millions (including myself) - to varying degrees, and for various reasons.

So may I respectfully ask, can one prove Amida is NOT a real Buddha, without referencing one's own set of beliefs?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:11:58 pm by Skylar, Reason: Dyslexic fingers »
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Offline Chaz

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2019, 03:23:34 pm »

You don't even give the guy a chance.  Kinda rude.  Disrespectful.

That is the pot calling the kettle black.  You seem to confuse moderation with throwing your weight around here, always needing to be right, always needing to have the last word.


No it's not.  You didn't give skylar any chance and doing that is both rude, and disrespectful.

I prefer to call that an uncomfortable truth.


Quote
Something to keep in mind here.  Buddhism is a religion - a system of beliefs.  Fact doesn't really enter into it.  Facts are for the courts.

Now you are making pronouncements.  Buddhism is many different things, it certainly doesn't have to involve belief in the sense we are talking about here.

Again, no.  Every legit definition I know calls Buddhism a religion, as in "the world's 4th largest religion" ?  Religion, by definition, is beliefs, not facts.  That is contrasted by courts of law, where facts are important.












Offline paracelsus

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #129 on: March 22, 2019, 09:07:53 pm »

You don't even give the guy a chance.  Kinda rude.  Disrespectful.

That is the pot calling the kettle black.  You seem to confuse moderation with throwing your weight around here, always needing to be right, always needing to have the last word.


No it's not.  You didn't give skylar any chance and doing that is both rude, and disrespectful.

I prefer to call that an uncomfortable truth.


Quote
Something to keep in mind here.  Buddhism is a religion - a system of beliefs.  Fact doesn't really enter into it.  Facts are for the courts.

Now you are making pronouncements.  Buddhism is many different things, it certainly doesn't have to involve belief in the sense we are talking about here.

Again, no.  Every legit definition I know calls Buddhism a religion, as in "the world's 4th largest religion" ?  Religion, by definition, is beliefs, not facts.  That is contrasted by courts of law, where facts are important.
One thing Buddhism is not, is a belief system, especially as we are exhorted to check out the teachings for their efficacy rather than follow like sheep.

Buddhism functions perfectly well as a spiritual discipline which brings certain and positive results (liberation) without any need for the creature comforts of religiosity. That it has adopted forms which provide these comforts to people might be more a matter of the re-purposing of the teachings to serve an additional end, that of providing spiritual comfort as a support on the path of spiritual development.

The teachings are most certainly concerned with fact.. I doubt that one can say that The Four Noble Truths are not factually based and still call themselves a buddhist. If they were only a matter of belief, we could escape the truth of them simply by not believing.

The ultimate aim of our practice is to “dwell independently without clinging to anything”, and "anything", I’d suggest, includes religious beliefs.

:om:

I'm not sure what you mean by a legit definition of buddhism. I assume you don't mean a definition from a buddhist. If you mean from someone who doesn't know or practice then they may not be qualified to comment.

Here's a definition from: "The Enlarged Devil's Dictionary" compiled by Ambrose Bierce in the 1800's:

"Buddhism; n. A preposterous form of religious error, perversely preferred by about three-fourths of the human race. According to the Rev. Dr Stebbins it is infinitely superior to the religion he has the honour to expound. Therefore it is."

 :)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 08:09:48 pm by paracelsus »

Offline Mental

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2019, 05:06:34 am »
... Yes. Amida is a real Buddha.

But you can't prove that, any more than you can prove God exists.  These are statements of belief, and not statements of fact.

Blow out the candle, fire returns to heat. Extinguish consciousness, returns to luminous Mahabrahma.

Amida is like the heat of compassion.

Offline paracelsus

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #131 on: March 24, 2019, 08:22:01 pm »
... Yes. Amida is a real Buddha.

But you can't prove that, any more than you can prove God exists.  These are statements of belief, and not statements of fact.

Blow out the candle, fire returns to heat. Extinguish consciousness, returns to luminous Mahabrahma.

Amida is like the heat of compassion.

Do you mean Amida is a real Buddha "out there" or "in here"?

Maybe:
Compassion is "in here" when I am compassionate. Amida could only be "out there" when I am not compassionate.
Buddha-hood is when the awakening factors are here, and is not when the hindrances prevail. Buddha-hood is for our own mind.
Otherwise Amida Buddha does not exist at all. :om: Maybe.

Offline Dharma Flower

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #132 on: April 18, 2019, 08:30:49 pm »
In the Lankavatara Sutra, the historical Buddha likens his teaching to a finger pointing at the moon:

Quote
For instance, Mahāmati, when a man with his finger-tip points at something to somebody, the finger-tip may be taken wrongly for the thing pointed at; in like manner, Mahāmati, the people belonging to the class of the ignorant and simple-minded, like those of a childish group, are unable even unto their death to abandon the idea that in the finger-tip of words there is the meaning itself, and will not grasp ultimate reality because of their intent clinging to words which are no more than the finger-tip to them…
As the ignorant grasp the finger-tip and not the moon, so those who cling to the letter, know not my truth.
http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-nondiacritical.htm

With the Lankavatara Sutra in mind, we can see Amida as a finger pointing to Dharma-body, the ultimate reality, rather than a literal Buddha from eons before the Big Bang.

Entrusting the Name, Namu-Amida-Butsu, we are led by Dharma-body to the Pure Land, the realm of Nirvana. In sincere gratitude for our rebirth, we say the Nembutsu.

Offline stevie

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #133 on: April 19, 2019, 01:03:15 am »
I follow Nagarjuna is this regard:
Quote
Everything is real and is not real, both real and not real, neither
unreal nor real. This is the Lord Buddha’s teaching. (MMK 18.8)

 <3

Offline Dharma Flower

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Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
« Reply #134 on: April 19, 2019, 10:17:07 am »
I follow Nagarjuna is this regard:
Quote
Everything is real and is not real, both real and not real, neither
unreal nor real. This is the Lord Buddha’s teaching. (MMK 18.8)

 <3

I agree. According to the Heart Sutra, all conditioned things are empty of inherent existence:

Quote
Sariputra, form is not other than emptiness
and emptiness not other than form.
Form is precisely emptiness and emptiness precisely form.
https://www.westernchanfellowship.org/about-the-western-chan-fellowship/buddhist-liturgy/the-heart-sutra/

Asking, then, if Amida is a real Buddha might the wrong question, since nothing is ultimately real in and of itself.

Amida, whether “real” or not, points us to the ultimate truth of Dharma-body, the one unconditioned reality.

 


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