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Schools of Buddhism => Mahayana => Pure Land => Topic started by: Dharma Flower on December 28, 2016, 11:49:55 pm

Title: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on December 28, 2016, 11:49:55 pm
Jodo Shinshu: A Guide was published by the Buddhist Churches of America in 2004. This part of the text gives the impression that Amida is a real Buddha:

Quote
Amida Buddha
To explain Amida Buddha to the people of his time, Sakyamuni spoke
before a gathering at Vulture's Peak near Rajagrha. He told them of a
king who renounced his throne and was given the name Dharmakara.
Motivated by deep compassion, he resolved that he would save humanity
from suffering. He made forty-eight vows, promising that he would
not become a Buddha until it was possible for all beings to be born in
his Pure Land.
For an inconceivably long time, he devoted his life to performing the
duties ofthe bodhisattva until he attained the highest, perfect En lightenment.
Realizing wisdom and compassion, he became Amida Buddha. By
becoming a Buddha, he fulfilled his vows and accomplished the liberation
of all humanity.
The 18th Vow, referred to as the Primal Vow, is the essential focus of
Jodo Shinshu:
Upon my attainment of Buddhahood, if the sentient beings in
the ten quarters, who have sincerity of heart, with sincere minds
entrusting themselves, and wishing to be born in my land, repeating
my name, perhaps up to ten times, would not be born
therein, then may I not obtain the Great Enlightenment.
Sakyamuni further reassured people to trust completely in the Teaching
and to recite the Name of Amida Buddha, "Namo Amida Butsu," for the
great compassion and wisdom of Amida would always be with them.
7
Amida Buddha, then, is the Ultimate Embodiment of Compassion
and Wisdom. Amida is neither a creative nor a destructive force. Amida
is neither forgiving nor judgmental; neither merciful nor vengeful. The
polarities that exist in the human condition do not exist in Amida Buddha.
Amida Buddha asks for nothing; Amida Buddha simply beckons
all to his Pure Land. Amida's Vow is therefore an unconditional promise
of compassion and liberation.
http:// buddhistchurchesofamerica.org/ wp/wp-content/uploads/jodo_ shinshu_a_guide.pdf


I've had doubts in the past about the Pure Land sutras, because they weren't written down until hundreds of years after the Buddha taught them. I then reminded myself that ancient India was an oral culture, in which important religious texts like the Rigveda were faithfully passed down for hundreds of years before taking a written form:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_chant#Oral_transmission
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on December 30, 2016, 10:28:33 pm
This is an article that first appeared in Tricycle magazine, which used historical evidence to call into question the common belief that the Pali scriptures are more historically trustworthy than the Mahayana scriptures:
http://www.lindaheuman.com/stories/Tricycle_Magazine_Whose_Buddhism_is_Truest.pdf (http://www.lindaheuman.com/stories/Tricycle_Magazine_Whose_Buddhism_is_Truest.pdf)

Here are some relevant parts:

Quote
"It was a mistake to assume that the foundation of Buddhist textual tradition was singular, that if you followed the genealogical branches back far enough into the past they would eventually converge. Traced back in time, the genealogical branches diverged and intertwined in such complex relationships that the model of a tree broke down completely. The picture looked more like a tangled bush...We now know that if there was ever a point of convergence in the Buddhist family tree - the missing link, the single original and authentic Buddhist cannon - it is physically lost in the era of oral transmission."

"Somehow we pictured the Buddha's true, single, unambiguous meaning encapsulated in his words like jewels inside a box, passed from one generation to the next...but that's not the way meanings or words work. In India, 'leaving the family' means 'getting married'. To my Jewish grandmother, it mean 'changing religions.' In the household where I was raised, it meant 'going to college.' The very same words, spoken in a different context, have different meanings. The meaning of words is their use in context. A set of words stripped of their context is like playing pieces stripped of their board game. What would we have?"

"It certainly would be good to know what the Buddha said. To the extent that we share the conventions of the 5th-century BCE Indians, we might understand some of what he meant. If we increased the conventions we shared with them, obviously we would understand more. But context is vast - an unbounded, interdependent web of connections. And it is dynamic, shifting moment to moment. We can't really recreate it. And even if we could, we still wouldn't know exactly how the Buddha was using his words within that context, so we wouldst know exactly what he meant."

"When it comes right down to it, sectarian posturing contradicts the Buddha's message as all traditions understand it...That picture is an essentialist view of the nature of reality, which according to the Buddha's doctrine of selflessness is the source of not just this, but all our suffering - the wrong view that is the very point of Buddhism to refute."
[url]http://www.lindaheuman.com/stories/Tricycle_Magazine_Whose_Buddhism_is_Truest.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.lindaheuman.com/stories/Tricycle_Magazine_Whose_Buddhism_is_Truest.pdf[/url])


Reading the above article will hopefully give us more confidence in the trustworthiness of the Pure Land sutras.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on December 30, 2016, 10:51:04 pm
This is a beautiful passage from the writings of Shinran:

Quote
In the Hymns [on the Samadhi] of All Buddhas’ Presence Shan-tao, the Master of Kuang-ming temple, explains that the heart of the person of shinjin already and always resides in the Pure Land. “Resides” means that the heart of the person of shinjin constantly dwells there. This is to say that such a person is the same as Maitreya. Since being of the stage equal to enlightenment is being the same as Maitreya, the person of shinjin is equal to the Tathagatas.
[url]http://shinranworks.com/letters/a-collection-of-letters-zensho-text/5-2/[/url] ([url]http://shinranworks.com/letters/a-collection-of-letters-zensho-text/5-2/[/url])


Reading this passage from Shinran helped me to realize that the belief Amida is really our true nature or our Buddha-nature doesn't make any sense if Amida isn't a real Buddha in the first place.

If one claims that a fictional character is really their true nature, it's a meaningless, empty statement. One might as well say that Daffy Duck or the Easter Bunny is really their true nature instead.

Furthermore, if we insist that Amida is really our true nature or our Buddha-nature without having any sort of objective reality outside our own minds, that becomes an exercise in self-centeredness, rather than entrusting in Amida and humbling ourselves before him.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on December 31, 2016, 02:57:05 am
This is a beautiful animated version of the Infinite Life Sutra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTASgrY-KpM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTASgrY-KpM)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: GoToTheStore on February 28, 2017, 11:47:28 am
Real Buddha is relative in that, who do you think you are
to ask?
In otherwords, What are you to decide what a Buddha is or not?
Buddha is a Buddha.


Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on March 04, 2017, 05:03:53 am
Real Buddha is relative in that, who do you think you are
to ask?
In otherwords, What are you to decide what a Buddha is or not?
Buddha is a Buddha.


There is no doubt in my mind that Amida is a real Buddha. The only question is what form or kind of Buddha is Amida.

Is Amida a literal flesh and blood Buddha, from eons before Big Bang, sitting on a lotus flower, billions of Buddha-lands away?

Or is Amida the ultimate Buddha, Dharma-body itself?

These are questions that we can only come to grips with in our own experience and understanding. No one can tell us what to believe or not believe, but I found the following article from Alfred Bloom helpful:
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/bloom.htm (http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/bloom.htm)

What matters, ultimately, is not what we believe or disbelieve about Amida in a doctrinal sense, but whether or not we recite and entrust in the Nembutsu. Please consider the following words from Honen Shonin:

Quote
Regarding the potential for a nembutsu devotee, I would say that one should recite nembutsu in whatever is the natural state one was born into. Since one is born into this world through the power of one’s residual karma, rectification is impossible.

To illustrate, one born as a woman cannot become a man in this life even if she fervently desires to be a man. The wise should recite nembutsu as wise people do; the unlearned should recite nembutsu in their natural state; the compassionate should recite nembutsu with compassion; and one with aberrant views may recite nembutsu as a person with aberrant views.

Each should recite nembutsu in his own manner. This is because Amida Buddha awakened his all-encompassing essential vow for all sentient beings in the ten directions.
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0861716965 (https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0861716965)


When asked who was the Buddha, the Chinese Chan master Yunmen replied, "A feces-covered stick." If Buddha-nature is in all things, at all times, then we need not be worried if Amida is a real Buddha or not.

In the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha uses various forms of expedient means, including parables, to convey a deeper truth. Even in the Pali scriptures, which are believed to be the oldest teachings of the Buddha, he teaches with various parables and symbolic expressions:
http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayanabuddhism/fl/Upaya.htm (http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayanabuddhism/fl/Upaya.htm)

The Infinite Life Sutra, then, which narrates the life of Amida as a literal flesh and blood Buddha from eons before the Big Bang, in a world galaxies away, is a parable or teaching device, rather than a literal story. Amida is expressive of Dharma-body itself, the Buddha-nature in all things and beings:

Quote
Shinran Shōnin goes even further in explaining the importance of religious symbols. He teaches us that the Buddha’s enlightenment (Dharma-body) is formless; we cannot see it, touch it, or grasp it. But, because it is true, it makes itself known to us by taking form.

Shinran says that formless truth takes the form of the light of wisdom and the Name of Amida Buddha—Namu Amida Butsu. The images and stories of Amida Buddha are all religious symbols, the form taken by wisdom and compassion in order to guide us to enlightenment.
[url]https://www.berkeleysangha.org/newsletter/Padma-2010-10-web.pdf[/url] ([url]https://www.berkeleysangha.org/newsletter/Padma-2010-10-web.pdf[/url])


Entrusting in the name, Namu-Amida-Butsu, we are made to realize the outworking of Dharma-body in our lives, leading us to the Pure Land, the realm of Nirvana. In sincere gratitude, we say Namu-Amida-Butsu.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on March 05, 2017, 12:34:55 am
This is from Naturalness, a Shin Buddhist classic:

Quote
The mythological representation of spiritual truth is an essential element in the organism of Shakyamuni’s Teaching.

When we read Buddhist Sutras, myth bursts in upon our ordinary consciousness with a revelation of something new and strange, and the narrow, matter-of-fact, workaday experience is suddenly flooded and transfused by the inrush of a vast experience, as from another world.

The visions of the mythopoeic imagination are received by the self of ordinary consciousness with a strange surmise of the existence, in another world, of Another Self which, while it reveals itself in these visions, has a deep secret which it will not disclose...

Shakyamuni appeals to that major and basal part of man’s nature which is not articulate and logical, but feels and wills and acts—to that part which cannot explain what a thing is, or how it happens, but feels spontaneously that the thing is good or bad, and expresses itself, not scientifically in theoretic judgments, but practically in value-judgments—or rather value-feelings.

In appealing, through the recital of dreams, to that major part of us which feels values, which wills and acts, Shakyamuni indeed goes down to the bedrock of human nature.
[url]http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=Pure_Feeling_by_Kenryo_Kanamatsu.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/viewpdf/default.aspx?article-title=Pure_Feeling_by_Kenryo_Kanamatsu.pdf[/url])

Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: stillpointdancer on March 05, 2017, 04:06:58 am
Hi Guys. Not a Pure Land Buddhist myself, but was given an Amitabha image by my teacher at my public ceremony when I became a mitra, and I have used it on my home shrine ever since. My visualization practice involves light going to everyone, so I guess I have a natural connection. Am I right in thinking that he epitomizes the idea that everyone should be able to gain wisdom, and that compassion is for all?
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on March 05, 2017, 01:03:02 pm
Hi Guys. Not a Pure Land Buddhist myself, but was given an Amitabha image by my teacher at my public ceremony when I became a mitra, and I have used it on my home shrine ever since. My visualization practice involves light going to everyone, so I guess I have a natural connection. Am I right in thinking that he epitomizes the idea that everyone should be able to gain wisdom, and that compassion is for all?


For Shinran Shonin, Amida is the ultimate personification of wisdom and compassion:

Quote
Compassionate means [hoben]

The Sanskrit original, upaya, means “coming near,” “approaching,” and in extension, “means,” “expedience.” Generally speaking, it has two usages in Buddhism: the method or practice by which a person can attain Buddhahood, and the skillful means which Buddhas use to teach and to guide sentient beings to enlightenment. In Shin Buddhism, compassionate means refers to the manifestation of ultimate reality, which is beyond time and form, in the world of relativities – that is, of the dharma-body as suchness in the realm of birth-and-death – so that it comes into the range of human comprehension and description. Thus, Amida, with Primal Vow, Name, and Land, is dharma-body as compassionate means that, while being one with dharma-body as suchness, makes possible the liberation and enlightenment of all beings.
[url]http://shinranworks.com/glossary/[/url] ([url]http://shinranworks.com/glossary/[/url])


Amida and the Nembutsu are a upaya or skillful means for us to come in contact with the ultimate Buddha, Dharma-body itself.

Also, for Shinran, the Pure Land is the realm of Nirvana itself:
Quote
The land of bliss is the realm of nirvana, the uncreated;
I fear it is hard to be born there by doing sundry good acts according to our diverse conditions.
Hence, the Tathagata selected the essential dharma,
Instructing beings to say Amida’s Name with singleness, again singleness.
[url]http://shinranworks.com/the-major-expositions/chapter-on-true-buddha-and-land/[/url] ([url]http://shinranworks.com/the-major-expositions/chapter-on-true-buddha-and-land/[/url])


I am honestly unsure if Amida is a literal flesh and blood Buddha from eons before the Big Bang in a world galaxies away. The most important thing is, from the perspective of Shinran's writings, that Amida is the ultimate Buddha, Dharma-body itself:
http://bschawaii.org/shindharmanet/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/02/Bloom-Ultimacy.pdf (http://bschawaii.org/shindharmanet/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/02/Bloom-Ultimacy.pdf)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Dharma Flower on March 06, 2017, 06:37:33 am
Everything that I teach or share regarding Amida Buddha and the Pure Land is upaya or skillful means, meaning that I will advocate any position or viewpoint that others need to hear in order to entrust themselves to the Nembutsu.

For those who need to hear that Amida is a literal flesh and blood Buddha, I teach that Amida is a literal flesh and blood Buddha. For those who need to hear that Amida is the ultimate Buddha, Dharma-body itself, I teach that Amida is the ultimate Buddha, Dharma-body itself.

What ultimately matters is whether or not one entrusts in the Nembutsu for one's future Buddhahood. As Honen taught, those with "aberrant views" should recite the Nembutsu anyway as a person with "aberrant views."
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: stillpointdancer on March 07, 2017, 03:59:16 am
That doesn't make sense. It might if you knew me, but you don't. If you don't want to answer questions then there is no point in me asking. I can just Google.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on March 20, 2017, 06:29:04 am
Hi Guys. Not a Pure Land Buddhist myself, but was given an Amitabha image by my teacher at my public ceremony when I became a mitra, and I have used it on my home shrine ever since. My visualization practice involves light going to everyone, so I guess I have a natural connection. Am I right in thinking that he epitomizes the idea that everyone should be able to gain wisdom, and that compassion is for all?
That's basically the gist of it. He epitomizes the idea that at the ultimate level of wisdom, compassion is expressed naturally, unceasingly, and is all-embracing. The visualization exercises that I'm aware of also involve receiving that light of compassion into oneself as well.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: stillpointdancer on March 21, 2017, 03:23:46 am
Hi Guys. Not a Pure Land Buddhist myself, but was given an Amitabha image by my teacher at my public ceremony when I became a mitra, and I have used it on my home shrine ever since. My visualization practice involves light going to everyone, so I guess I have a natural connection. Am I right in thinking that he epitomizes the idea that everyone should be able to gain wisdom, and that compassion is for all?
That's basically the gist of it. He epitomizes the idea that at the ultimate level of wisdom, compassion is expressed naturally, unceasingly, and is all-embracing. The visualization exercises that I'm aware of also involve receiving that light of compassion into oneself as well.
Thanks for that. It explains another visualization practice I do where I imagine myself as a hollow glass image of me meditating, with white light pouring into the vessel, cleansing and filling it. I finish by sealing off the the glass image filled with white light.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 16, 2017, 09:23:04 pm
I feel sorry for anybody who reads those 7 paragraphs and comes away from it thinking that any of it is real or in any way based on official doctrines or sutras.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 17, 2017, 06:01:02 pm
"Nonsense counter to Buddhism" - sounds like an apt description of trying to establish Amitabha as having anything to do with Vishnu. There are no mentions of Veganism in the 3 Pure Land sutras.

"There is no right nor wrong in this instance." - In Buddhism there is definitely "Right View" (part of the 8 fold path) and "Wrong View" the view of those who follow other sects, such as the Puranas. You have definitely embraced the later.

"What was written is correct. I suggest you clarify your problem." - Almost everything you wrote is complete nonsense.

"A strict doctrine of orthodox Buddhist form is also counter to the Dharma." - "Right View" is the first step of the 8 fold path, any path that doesn't have the 8 fold path is not Buddhist. Your concept of "Dharma" is not "Buddha Dharma".

"How can you claim that the seven paragraphs are not true when you do not know what lineage is speaking?" - I know precisely what the sutras & Buddhist lineage masters say. You're peddling Puranic Hinduism as BuddhaDharma and it is disgusting.

"What does lineage have to do with enlightenment?" - You're the one that mentioned lineage with your "secret pronunciation" monkey business.

"And why would you feel sorry for people you have invented in your mind?" - Compassion embraces the suffering of all sentient beings. In this case, you are disparaging the Buddha Dharma (by misrepresenting it), the penalties for it are rather harsh, as would be the suffering for any misfortunate few that somehow thought your nonsense was correct.

"Perhaps you should ask questions and make inquiries for the sake of polite interaction." - No, presenting Puranic Hinduism as Pure Land Buddha Dharma is insulting. You should apologize.

"Finding out what you have missed by polite interaction only will enrich both people." - Misrepresenting the Buddha Dharma is serious enough that it should not be treated lightly.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 17, 2017, 07:18:37 pm
You are still not letting go.
Letting go? Of what? Buddha Dharma? Not going to happen

Such anger, ignorance and greed in your rhetoric. Let me help you through this. I will address each of the seven points you made.
You need to quit projecting your own limitations upon me. Your personal attacks have already been reported to the moderators.

1. Yes, Vishnu has a lot to do with The Pure Land concepts of Amitabha. In fact, most statues of Avolkiteshvara are Vishnu statues with different hand ornaments. The lotus pond is the causal sea. The idea of a Pure Land was borrowed from the Hindu concept of Loka. Amitabha wears a swastika on his chest from both the Jain and Hindu traditions and the list goes on and on.
Blatant fabrication. Amitabha has nothing to do with Loka, nothing to do with Vishnu. These are your own ideas, you have absolutely no evidence for this statement. Avalokitesvara is said in a sutra to appear as Vishnu for those who refuse the BuddhaDharma and choose to only be led by heterodox deities, but he is not Vishnu, nor does Pure Land doctrine depend on Vishnu.

As far as Veganism and Pure Land Sutras are concerned, I suggest you re-read the Shurangama Sutra and visit a Chinese Pure Land temple for instruction on this Sutra and a vegan lifestyle change. I also suggest you re-read both my comment and my footnote.
The Shurangama sutra is not a primary sutra for Pure Land. There are also questions of whether or not it is a Chinese fabrication. Again, you would do well to do more research into actual Pure Land doctrine.

2. Buddha teaches us to rise above right and wrong.
The Buddha is very explicit when it comes to misrepresenting his teachings.

3. Read the footnote I have added. Your foolishness dispermits you to see anything but nonsense. I am trying to help you make sense of this to break your bonds of ignorance.
Your footnote looks like nothing but perennialist/traditionalist syncretic assertions based on absolutely no evidence.

4. I espoused right view and explained how it is such. Your anger, Ignorance and greed to own the Buddha Dharma on your terms is not right view!
No, you assert stuff that is contrary to the sutras and is heterodox doctrine as Buddha Dharma. I've said nothing that departs from Pure Land sutras. Again, disparaging the Buddha Dharma (by misrepresentation) is serious business, explicitly explained in the Sutras and you're doing it big time in this thread.

5. Your slam towards lineage does not involve anything worth addressing. Instead of insulting my lineage, you now insult all lineages.
"Secret pronunciation" sounds like a con. It's in no way consistent with Pure Land teachings, which are a sutra teaching. Your statements are not consistent with the sutras.

6. I did not present Puranic Hinduism as Buddhism. You have a tainted view. Try re-reading what I have written.
That's precisely what you've done with your perennialist/traditionalist view that tries to syncretize Puranic Hinduism with Pure Land teachings. It's counterfeit Buddha Dharma. I've exposed it as such. I am not tainted, I'm presenting authentic Buddha Dharma, something that you would do well to learn about.

7. So, why are you misrepresenting the Buddha Dharma through such racist, angry eyes?
I'm pointing out a misrepresentation as misrepresentation. I've said nothing of race. You're projecting your own anger onto me. Both are a form of ad hominem. Were this a formal debate, you just lost.

For the sake of trying to save this thread with some accurate information, instead of made-up perennialism:
Amitabha (Shorter Sukhavativyuha) Sutra (http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra23.html)
Amitayus (Larger Sukhavativyuha) Sutra (http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra25.html)
Amitayurdhyana (Visualization) Sutra (http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra24.html)
Vasubandhu's commentary on the Amitayus Sutra (http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra26.html)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 18, 2017, 02:31:02 am
Hi there Ficus religiosa,

I don’t see how anyone is misinterpreting your views to win an argument.  All I see is someone defending their understanding of Pure Land against blatant fabrications and heterodox views.




Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 18, 2017, 06:19:06 am
Ficus Religiosa, yes, I suppose we're all humbled to speechlessness with your gracious ability to completely derail a thread with self-validating sectarianism.

Do you have any more teachings on Right View and Right Speech to expound?
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 18, 2017, 12:58:20 pm
You didn't even touch the topic of Right View and Right Speech in the foundational sense of The Eightfold Path. If the majority in here are in disagreement with you; how far, in a "verb"-sense as you describe it, along a practical Path towards genuine Dharma-practice harmonizing with the environment, would you say you are?
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: zafrogzen on April 18, 2017, 01:04:09 pm
Ficus,

I agree with your screed against the mistreatment of animals. Causing suffering should always be avoided. But get real. You used the word "vegan “ in almost every sentence. It’s apparently of paramount importance to you. However, you must know the historical Buddha was not a vegan and is reported to have died from ingesting spoiled pork at a ripe old age.

We are all impermanent and destined for dissolution, coming and going. Every one of us, animal, vegetable or mineral, is part of the larger web of life. I think many Buddhists are meat eaters because they see clearly into the illusory nature of birth and death.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 18, 2017, 06:58:15 pm
Solodris-

The Eightfold path concepts of Right View and Right Speech were discussed more than in terms of verb tense. Of course, more can be said. Perhaps I will write more after I address Zafrogzen.

Zafrogzen-

The Buddha did not die as you suggest. The Chinese Mahayanists explain well how he died from poisonous mushrooms when the Sutras are correctly translated. The Hindu Buddhists who were there say that the Sutras are wrong and that he died from contaminated water. The Hindu Buddhists offer direct evidence from eye witnesses so their account is probably most accurate.

The Buddha was vegan.

The normal diet for human's to obtain best health is a vegan diet as supported by the AMA.

The best diet for the ecology is a vegan diet.

It is not just that it is important to me, an idea you have espoused which tries to locate a self nature within this one which I assure you does not exist, but it is important for the animals, for society, for the ecology, for the mass of suffering as you have well noticed and as well for Karma.

I did not overstate the word vegan in my writing, if anything it was understated. Only meat eaters find it offensive.

I notice from your dis-compassionate view of life and death that you somehow find justification in eating the tortured and executed remains of animal corpses, justifying it with libertine flair and a mention of some spider web of darkness you suggest is life.

Buddhism is not about doing what is easy. The first precept is a vow to be vegan for life. One may not eat any flesh if one is to be a proper precept holder. That first precept states:


NO KILLING!

this includes not involving one's self in any activity that cuts short any life.

Hi Ficus religiosa,

No one knows for sure what killed the Buddha, some say pork others mushrooms. I’ve never heard the contaminated water story before.

The Buddha was not vegan because he and his followers accepted what was put into their bowls, which sometimes included meat.

That first precept states, ‘I undertake the rule of training which consists in abstention from killing living beings’. It doesn’t say I vow to be vegan for life. It doesn’t say I will not eat any flesh if one is to be a proper precept holder.  It does mean that as long as the animals are not killed by or for you, then it is acceptable to eat meat. Hence, the Buddha’s acceptance of meat when it was put into his bowl during rounds.

Many Buddhist would agree with you on non-violence against animals, however if you want to argue for vegan/vegetarianism I suggest you join one of the many, many vegetarian threads on this site, instead of derailing this one.

By the way, there are Hindus and there are Buddhists, but there are no Hindu Buddhists as their beliefs are incompatible. For example, Hindus practice killing, animals for sacrifice, which as you have pointed out many times killing goes against the first precept. 
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 18, 2017, 08:07:04 pm
Yet Ficus religiosa, history tells us vegetarianism in India begins after the introduction of Buddhism and Jainism in the sixth century BCE. So, at the time of the Buddha most of the population would have been meat eaters as animals were major a source of food at the time.

I heard in the sutras that ‘Sujata had a thousand cows, and she fed them with sweet creepers called valmee so that the cow’s milk was sweet. She milked these thousand cows and fed that milk to five hundred cows, and then fed their milk to two hundred and fifty cows and so on until she fed only eight cows. She did this to get the sweetest and most nourishing milk, to make delicious milk-rice, and this is what she offered to the Buddha’.

And, you haven’t explained the oxymoron Hindu Buddhist. That is, how can Hindus who practice killing animals for sacrifice, breaking the first precept, be considered Buddhists? Perhaps you mean Indian Buddhists. 

Ok, I have a couple of more questions. Who are you, to suggest you cannot spend all evening correcting such outlandishness? And who is your teacher?
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 18, 2017, 09:52:25 pm
Buddha is viewed as an Avatar of Vishnu, the tenth Avatar.


So Ficus religiosa, you are not really a Buddhist. 

Suggest you join a Sanatana Dharma forum if you want to preach Hinduism (modern context), because there are important differences between Buddhism and Hinduism, like you haven't really explained those animal sacrifices yet.

However, if you want to learn about Buddhism, Jhana and Vipassana meditation stick around.

:namaste:



Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 18, 2017, 10:41:17 pm
So Francis,

You do not determine who is nor who is not Buddhist. You are very comedic though.

By the way, why don't you go back to the Theravada section and waste your time there, this is for PureLand people. It is doubtful you have anything to teach, but the egoism of your last statement certainly shows what you contemplate. In fact, based on your last statement, you are not really even a fellow student.

Nice try.

PS. who is preaching? Not to discredit you, but I have politely answered your questions and yet you have remained foolish.

 :teehee:

Hi Ficus religiosa,

Buddhists follow the teachings of the Buddha, it's pretty simple. 

I'm a secular Buddhist, who is happy to learn about all traditions. Though, I draw the distinction between Buddhism and Hinduism, and it is true I'm not a student of Hinduism. 

As for wasting time with Pure Land people, all you have done is insult other members when they tried to defending their understanding of Pure Land against you blatant fabrications and heterodox views, totally derailing the thread. You might want to consider apologising for that.

[EDIT] Sorry, I missed you post on animal sacrifices, while I was posting. All you are doing by following Kali Yuga is confirming you follow Hinduism and not Buddhism. 
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 19, 2017, 02:35:44 am
Hi Ficus religiosa,

There are major difference between Buddhism and Hinduism.  So yes, I do get a bit fed up when people insist the Buddha is just an avatar of Vishnu.

You might find more traction for your views at the Hindu Dharma Forums.

In the meantime, people are still waiting for your apology for derailing this topic with your blatant fabrications and heterodox views.

Good night.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: IdleChater on April 19, 2017, 07:44:02 am
Hi Ficus religiosa,

There are major difference between Buddhism and Hinduism.  So yes, I do get a bit fed up when people insist the Buddha is just an avatar of Vishnu.

You should not take the attitude of being fed up.  There are a lot of Hindus who see Shakyamuni Buddha as an Avatar of Vishnu, and they are entitled to their belief.

Quote
You might find more traction for your views at the Hindu Dharma Forums.

In the meantime, people are still waiting for your apology for derailing this topic with your blatant fabrications and heterodox views.

Fig's view may be hetrodox, but the same could be said for Secular Buddhist views as well.  The moral of the story, being, becarefull what names you assign to others.

As far as Fig's views go, I am not an apologist, in much the same way I offer no apology for Secular Buddhism.  I can't. I disagree.

Fig isn't so much heterodox as he is trying to add a thing of two (or three?) and then attempts to foist this upon us as some kind of twisted orthodoxy

And where did he get that mantra?  I did 108 recitations and became constipated.  Not really.  I haven't even done a single recitation in the context of practice.  Sorry.  But I do wonder if if he will offer us a Sandhana to practice along with the mantra.  After all, what is a mantra without it's accompanying Sadhana?  The Sadhana of Vegan Buddha.  Perhaps Fig is a terton?  :om: :jinsyx: :lmfao:

Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: zafrogzen on April 19, 2017, 11:52:33 am
Hey, Holy Fig (tree),

I'm impressed with how many balls you can keep in the air.

You wrote regarding my earlier comment
Quote
I notice from your dis-compassionate view of life and death that you somehow find justification in eating the tortured and executed remains of animal corpses, justifying it with libertine flair and a mention of some spider web of darkness you suggest is life.

The "web of darkness" is this life as it's being lived by beings who have evolved through killing and eating one another. Your view is very idealistic and apart from the reality of life. Even though I might not be as holy as you, you're wrong when you say I'm not compassionate. I'm also grateful for this life of both darkness and light.

Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: IdleChater on April 19, 2017, 12:57:16 pm
Idle Chater

I really am thankful for your comment. I felt all alone, locked in interrogation by Francis and his heterodoxic tribunal.

Your gratitude may be misplaced.  I don't support what you're saying.

Quote
I agree there should be a practice associated with this Mantra, and there is. There is an entire Tantra, a new Yana of Buddhism associated with it and a plethora of other Mantras and practices, indeed a even a truer Buddhist cosmology for this new Yana.

I find this laughable at best.  A new Yana? 



Quote
It is very difficult to offer these wondrous things in a chat room. A simple Mantra to assist the Pure Land group was offered to clarify their path while they suffered through their inadequate yanas based upon racial division, regionalism, language barriers and incorrect view.

Prior to my submissions in this chat room, no one had conveyed the link between veganism and Buddhism, Hinduism and Buddhism, Jain Dharma and Buddhism, correct historic analysis of Buddhism and the correct use of Sanskrit for Buddhism. I did not plan to take on such a mission, it just sort of fell upon me and now I am in the middle of it.

Maybe you should abandon this direction and seek a qualified teacher to work with you.

Quote
Your message was a glimmer of hope, a ray of light that certainly has reached my heart. Thank you.

You're welcome, but I did not intend for you to take any hope from it.  I don't think your a Terton.  I don't put any importance on what you're saying.  In fact it's painfully common on the 'Net for people with crackpot ideas about Buddhism to try to establish themselves via forums like this.

This whole Vegan Buddha thing is heterodox nonsense.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: IdleChater on April 19, 2017, 07:20:27 pm
Idle Chatter


Yes, a new Yana.

Something that may involve many lives for you to grasp.

No worries.  I'm  in it for the long haul.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: zafrogzen on April 19, 2017, 07:48:56 pm
Ficus,

Actually I was feeling some compassion for you, since you seem sort of lonely up there.

The image of the Net of Indra appears often in Hua-yen Buddhism. It apparently refers to co-dependent origination, where the whole is each part, each part is the whole and even the smallest particle contains the whole universe. I've never heard it mentioned in connection with being vegan.

I agree that vegan is a very righteous lifestyle. When I'm cooking for myself I prefer beans and rice with veggies, over meat. But I don't think it's nearly as important as you would have it. Everything is being born and dying moment by moment. If everyone went vegan it wouldn't change that fact of life -- although the planet and most people might be somewhat healthier. But I don't agree that it has much to do with whether one experiences meditative insight or not.

For someone who espouses the "unobtainable" you certainly appear to be attached to various external attributes and methods, as well a personal opinions regarding Buddhism.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: stillpointdancer on April 20, 2017, 03:07:23 am
How can one truly be compassionate with blood on their lips from lunch? Compassion increases in the heart when fundamental discipline is applied towards diet and one no longer consumes sentient Beings. This is the secret of Indra's net. We must leave behind the carnal web of life and its suffering and bring everything to a higher level, a higher understanding, a higher lifestyle choice and a higher consciousness which provides a higher vibrational field throughout time and space.

Sorry Ficus. I know that remark was for Zafrogzen, but I want to answer your question. You can be compassionate towards animals you are eating, just as you can be compassionate towards plants you are eating. Just because you personally cant hear the lettuce leaf screaming doesn't mean it isn't. 'Blood on their lips from lunch' is a truly venomous, hateful phrase, and something you need to let go of to make further progress. Again, apologies for butting into a conversation that was not directed at me, but my sense of compassion meant I had to say something.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: IdleChater on April 20, 2017, 06:09:06 pm
Stillpointdancer---

No you can not be compassionate towards animals that you eat. Such disillusion!

Seriously, are you going to tell me a leaf of lettuce suffers the same as an animal? Is this your deluded understanding? Really?

Perhaps you should visit a slaughter house. I am sure there are animal slaughter videos on YouTube you can watch. Is this your Buddhism; kill 'em and lie and eat 'em up?

You do not like hearing about the blood dripping from your lips after lunch? Then do not eat meat!

Go vegan!

Seeing as you brought up abbatoirs, never been in one myself, but I have taken part in the actual killing and slaughtering of animals I've  eaten.  It's  a grizzly buisness.  I've  heard the sound of a bullet ripping through the skull of an animal I shot, heard and watched their death throes, and have been cloaked in their blood.  I've stood in their bloddy guts.  There's nothing pleasant in it, but it's  never dulled my appetite.  I'm  oky with the karmic consequences of that as well as the ribs I had for dinner tonight.  My guru is ok with it too, so your condemnations are as meaningless to me as they are vapid.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: zafrogzen on April 20, 2017, 09:01:47 pm
Fig's rhetoric reminds me of anti-abortion zealots.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 20, 2017, 09:07:07 pm
(http://img.ifcdn.com/images/22b19b56ca715e82e064c7c29d88208c9575d20015986df6056369b8c3983638_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 21, 2017, 12:32:47 am
Ommmmmmm,

May the Vegan Bodhisattvas help the minds of these sentient beings to find the truth of animal cruelty as the greatest mass of Suffering upon this planet, may the Cause of this Suffering be revealed to them as their own hardness of hearts and the delusion of so many wayward minds. May the suffering cycle of Samsara not increase with such dis-compassion because we do not want more suffering upon this Earth as they process their Karma. May they find the path that leads to the End to such Carnal Suffering by changing their lives to be vegan. May they accept this path with seriousness. May their laughter at the mocking of the path now, become tears of conscience later. May their time as vegans clarify the truth in their hearts that the suffering they contributed to was unnecessary and careless.

Om Vegan Amrita Prabha Buddha.

As Ajahn Brahm once said: "Every problem has a solution, something that does not have a solution is not a problem and you just have to make peace with it."

Trying to project your own solutions about your own surroundings might be creating problems for people who don't recognize them as actual problems. So in perspective, there is something that is not a problem for someone, something they experience to be at peace at, and then you assert a solution and suddenly it's a problem that causes suffering for these people. Having made peace with something is non-dualistic and has no confusion, it's simply nature. Creating a solution where there is peace is enforcing a distinctive problem to be recognized and be dealt with, this is not compassionate, right effort or right motivation. What happens if you try to recognize things that you have created solutions for and erase them to make peace with the problem from another perspective?

What I'm saying is, forcing your own views on Veganism is putting a problem for members here that does not share your view and simply want to remain in the peace from their perspective of there being no problem. Enforcing a problem, makes it problematic, it's not a pleasant conversational topic, it doesn't lead to unbinding from cyclic suffering. You're in a perpetual cycle of establishing a problem that no one else can find peace with. This is not how brothers and sisters speak to each other. Please understand, I'm occasionally Vegan and certainly supports anyone's choice to make it their lifestyle, my Vegan practice is mostly based on meditation where I explore the different aspects of adopting it. But telling other people that they should be Vegan is something I would never do. There is no benefit to be found in a conversation filled with enforced aversion.

The practice we strive for, is to harmonize not only with animals, but fellow human beings as well. On every level. If we do not harmonize with our fellow human beings, how are we supposed to teach each-other anything?
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 21, 2017, 12:53:13 am

Solodaris-

There is no such thing as 'occasionally vegan.'

Sometimes I choose to adopt a Vegan lifestyle and that was how I chose to phrase it at the time being. Because there's always a chance I might stick to it.

Do you walk around correcting your friends and family like this too?

Have a peaceful day.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 21, 2017, 01:42:10 am
Ficus Religiosa, you should make a thread about Veganism and expound different perspectives on animal suffering and maybe even point out how that might affect the notion of our own suffering at some point. Sort of an introduction thread to the Vegan lifestyle. That would be interesting to read about.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 21, 2017, 02:18:43 am

To be a successful vegan:

1. Eat fruit in the morning with starch. Fruit should be eaten separately from vegetables. One pear, one banana and 3 dates with a puffed rice cracker can work.

2. Eat vegetables, beans, starch etc. for lunch and dinner.

3. Eat many colors of fruits and vegetables because the colors represent different minerals and vitamins.

4. Always eat some starch with each meal because eating only fruit and vegetables will cause diarrhea.

5. Use nutritional yeast sprinkled on meals, in soups, on pasta etc. as a wonderful source of vitamin B12.

6. Have one plant based vitamin D3 capsule every day. These are available at [url=http://www.puritanspride.com]www.puritanspride.com[/url] ([url]http://www.puritanspride.com[/url]).

7. If you want, you can buy a synthetic sublingual B12 to squirt under your tongue too. 


That is it. It is easy to do, fun and a great learning experience. The vegan cornucopia gets better and better almost daily. There are vegan cheeses, vegan ice creams, vegan beef jerky and other amazing food products. One can buy vegan shampoo, vegan toothpaste, vegan laundry detergent, vegan dish soap, vegan hand soap, vegan shower soap and vegan creme rinse too. One quickly learns that the vegan products are the best.

Also there is a vegan restaurant finder at [url=http://www.happycow.net]www.happycow.net[/url] ([url]http://www.happycow.net[/url]). Its data bank is world wide. Or you can just type in 'vegan' to the search engine of google maps.


Hi there again Ficus religiosa,

I’m not sure what qualification you have to be giving dietary advice, but you might want to talk to a dietician before giving out poor and potentially dangerous health advice.

‘The B12 found in nutritional yeast is actually a supplement and not natural.

Yeast, like plants, does not make vitamin B12.  Only bacteria can produce B12.

Don’t assume that all nutritional yeast contains B12.  Make sure that you read the label and find out how much B12 is really in your nutritional yeast so you can make sure you are meeting the RDA for B12.

The current RDA for B12 is 2.4 mcg daily (for healthy adults), though many experts are now pushing to increase the RDA to 4mcg daily.

The fact, that people need synthetic sublingual B12 supplements means veganism is not a natural diet.

Very few foods contain vitamin D. Synthesis of vitamin D (specifically cholecalciferol, vitamin D3) in the skin is the major natural source of the vitamin. Vitamin D is made in the skin from cholesterol dependent on sun exposure (specifically UVB radiation).

Vegans also increase the risk of iron deficiency anaemia, a potentially serious condition in which the body does not make enough oxygen-bearing red blood cells.

Iron is available in two forms: heme and non-heme. Heme iron is the most easily used by your body and is found in meat, poultry, and fish. Non-heme iron is found in vegetables — your body can still use it, just not as easily.

The bottom line is people have to eat a lot more plants (kg’s) to get their average daily intake of iron, compared to people who have a balanced diet the includes meat (grams).’

And, you might want to include a few more pulses in your vegan diet.

Source google.


Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: stillpointdancer on April 21, 2017, 03:11:37 am
Stillpointdancer---
No you can not be compassionate towards animals that you eat. Such disillusion!
Seriously, are you going to tell me a leaf of lettuce suffers the same as an animal? Is this your deluded understanding? Really?
You do not like hearing about the blood dripping from your lips after lunch? Then do not eat meat!
Go vegan!

"No you can not be compassionate towards animals that you eat. Such disillusion!"
You still don't get it do you Ficus? You don't give a fig for anything but your own viewpoint. The more you slag off people, the further you are from enlightenment. The more you obsess about veganism, the more you cling on to that which is holding you back. Let it go and follow the path. You have no idea of the compassion I have for things. You don't know me, know nothing of my background, but presume to know everything.

"Seriously, are you going to tell me a leaf of lettuce suffers the same as an animal? Is this your deluded understanding? Really?
Did I say 'same'? But yes, every living thing suffers. My understanding comes from insight. I have no idea where yours comes from, but my guess it is from the leavings of others. Try thinking about the suffering of each living leaf as you grind it in your teeth, and then try your hardest to raise whatever minuscule compassion you have in your heart towards it. Then you might make progress.

"You do not like hearing about the blood dripping from your lips after lunch? Then do not eat meat!"
Couldn't care less about words as such, particularly from people such as yourself, but just wanted to warn you that the vitriolic filth that lies in your heart is holding you back from progress along the path. Try to be more compassionate to all living things, people, animals, plants, and those of other categories.

My perfect world would be where we manufactured all of our food so that neither animal nor plant suffers. I would never eat what came from living things again. So there!
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: francis on April 21, 2017, 03:12:41 am
Francis,

You left last time throwing the heterodox bomb into the chat room and then ran away as fast as you could. You have already shown yourself to be a bane for this chat room discussion because you did not get the thread to do what you want and because with the example you set, it is difficult to trust your Buddhism.

I do not trust a word you say about diet nor Buddhism.

How long have you been vegan?

Everything you wrote about iron and  B12 and nutritional yeast is rubbish. I do not care if it came from Google.

You and LetGo (who has shown us all what he means by Let Go quite graphically) and IdleChater have trolled away your own credibility.

I truly think IdleChater's heart can be reached.

I think LetGo needs to get over it.

I think you Francis, choose to misuse your sharp intelligence to misguide people.

The Buddha is clear about what happens to people who choose to misguide others.


Hi again Ficus religiosa,

I didn't run away,  I chose not to inflame the situation.

Let’s be clear, your vegan diet is not a heathy diet. Not only because of inaccurate information about vitamin B12 and D3, but also because it lack pulses, which are an excellent source of protein.

As far as pulses go, soybeans are the holy grail because they have a complete amino acid profile, but hey not a mention.  Could that possibly be because vast tracts of rainforest are cleared to grow soybeans for vegans?

As you say, the Buddha is clear about what happens to people that choose to misguide others.

And, you might also want to try refuting people’s arguments instead of going the ad-hom.


Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 06:24:44 am
(http://a.scpr.org/i/ec3f385fcf53e0af9ef7e480b7bf3fcf/107320-full.jpg)

If we are to recite "Amrita" then we would be in keeping with the Vedas, the Mahabarata, the Vishnu Purana, and the Upanishads, not necessarily Buddha Dharma. The Buddha Dharma redefines "Amrita" as "recollection" (anussati - specifically "kāyagatāsati" or recollection of the impermanence of the body) in the Nakulapita Sutta. "Amrita" is not the term in the Sanskrit versions of the Pure Land sutras, nor was it the term translated into Chinese. Accusations of racism really only apply for those that follow Sanatana Dharma, who say that Sanskrit is a holy language that must be pronounced properly, and not those that follow Buddha Dharma, who denied the idea of a holy language that requires a perfect pronunciation (he literally says this in various places in the Tripitaka). The East Asian Pure Land version of Amitabha's name are "best effort" transliterations by people who are not Sanskrit speakers and their recitations are not a form of racism.

First and foremost in Right View is knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. - DN 22. Stress/suffering/Dukkha is recognizing that all compounded things are impermanent. Understanding the origination of stress means understanding that suffering is born of ignorance and that this entire mass of stress (the 5 skandhas) come about due to ignorance. This view is completely inconsistent with the idea of Trimūrti concept of supreme divinity from the Puranas, where Brahma typically identifies the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. There is no Brahman or Absolute in BuddhaDharma, especially Mahayana Buddha Dharma, where all phenomena is said to be empty of an intrinsic essence. In fact, one of the provisions in the typical Buddhist refuge ceremony is the vow to never take refuge in heterodox gods, such as Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva (explicitly named in my own ceremony); which is why I've taken such issue with the assertion that Vishnu and Amitabha are somehow related/the same. The concept of Sukhavati being the same as Loka is somewhat disputed by the Shorter Sukhavativyuha, where it is made clear that Sukhavati is the product of Amitabha's enlightened mind & great vows, rather than some substantially existing place. (On a side note, the Sukhavati Sutra mentions jeweled nets, but these are not explicitly a reference to Indra's net).

The idea that one is destined for hell automatically due to killing is refuted by the Angulimala Sutta. Angulimala was a serial killer, who had killed hundreds of people, but still met the Buddha and achieved Arhatship through the Dharma.

The idea that the Buddha drank tainted water is refuted by the Maha-parinibbana Sutta (DN 16). The Buddha died after eating tainted Sukara-maddava (pig's tenders) served by Cunda. In fact, Ananda balked at serving the Buddha tainted water in his final moments and was severely chastised for it later.

One of the biggest criticisms against Buddhists by the Jains was that they ate meat, with specific proscriptions given in the Vinaya of the types of meat to be avoided. The Jains chided the Buddhists saying that they would eat a baby if there was no intent behind the killing & cooking of the baby - a reference to their accepting whatever meat was given on alms rounds.

The worst part of this troll is how easily so many of the assertions are refuted by the actual Sutras, both Nikaya/Agama and Mahayana sutras.

The questions about the authenticity of the Shurangama Sutra are well documented by Ronald Epstein in the following presentation:
http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/authenticity.htm (http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/authenticity.htm)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: IdleChater on April 21, 2017, 09:05:54 am
Fig's rhetoric reminds me of anti-abortion zealots.

Yeah, it also reminds me of Zealot Vegan Buddhists.  Tedious.  Wrong.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 21, 2017, 09:30:55 am
Yeah, it also reminds me of Zealot Vegan Buddhists.  Tedious.  Wrong.

So, you'd figure you perpetuate a behavior that doesn't end it's cyclic existence in suffering?

This conversation is void. Non-dualism is the freedom from suffering of confusion, since it releases the ego to find the self as supreme authority.

Tell me, if an opinion is stated, is it a skillful or an unskillful act to perpetuate statements in cyclic argumentation? This is suffering.

If an opinion is stated, and it causes aversion, conflict to arise, should we abandon or acquire these behaviors in perpetual motion?

There was an origination of the phenomena of unskillful speech causing friction, now, it is the duties of Buddhists to reduce the friction, that's how you learn to cease cyclic behavior. Only teaching the way of the path to those misguided, is the one path we are all walking.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 11:51:15 am

Sadly, now LetGo is also misguiding people with false information because of his greed to win.

He spreads ignorance and falsity and can not be trusted.

As I have written clearly, Vegan Amrita Prabha Buddha is his NAME.

I seriously cannot believe the admins of this site are allowing this to continue.
You are flat out lying and spreading nonsense.
The sutras I sent say "Amrita Prabha" NOWHERE in the teachings you dishonest fool.
Here is a copy of the Amitabha Sutra in Sanskrit:
http://www.nembutsu.info/music/sanskrit.pdf (http://www.nembutsu.info/music/sanskrit.pdf)
Here it is in romanized Alphabet:
http://www.nembutsu.info/music/smallersukhavarti.pdf (http://www.nembutsu.info/music/smallersukhavarti.pdf)
Here it is chanted in Sanskrit:
http://www.nembutsu.info/music/Chanting.MP3 (http://www.nembutsu.info/music/Chanting.MP3)

"Amrita Prabha" is NOWHERE IN THE SUTRA you liar.
Anybody who wants can read it or listen to it for themselves to see what a lying piece of trash you are.

Quote from: Abhasita Sutra: What was Not Said AN 2.23 (Ai59) ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.023.than.html[/url])
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 11:58:14 am
LetGo


You have only posted Japanese Sutra sites. You are a fool. You are a Japanese racist. You mislead others.
Are you so stupid to think just because a website url has a meaning in Japanese that the site is Japanese?
Now who's racist?
You're a stupid racist liar spreading misinformation and slandering the Buddha's Dharma.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:03:00 pm
Moderators & Admins - do you really do anything here?
I'm asking seriously.
If you do, this post & half of this thread should be removed.
This episode is seriously making me question my participation here.
I think I'm done with this thread for the time being, possibly this whole forum.
I've exposed this troll 10 times over and attempted to correct his dangerous misinformation.
If any of the moderators for this site actually follow the Terms of Service, they'll do something about this.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:06:59 pm
A sanskrit manuscript from Nepal is not a Japanese source.
(http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/224107-You-re-So-Full-Of-Shit-The-Toilet-s-Jealous.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:10:37 pm
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder10/51280010.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:20:45 pm
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/in-order-for-you-to-insuld-me-i-would-first-have-to-value-your-opinion.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:31:26 pm
(http://www.thranguhk.org/buddhism/images/mahakala5.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:35:35 pm
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/fd/42/66/fd4266f4cd568c67a148f9cfb3e083c3.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:41:05 pm

Now the demons of this chat room will leave.


The Shurangama Mantra:

      DWO JR TWO
      NAN
      E NA LI
      PI SHE TI
      PI LA BA SHE LA
      TWO LI
      PAN TWO PAN TWO NI
      BA SHE LA BANG NI PAN
      HU SYIN DU LU YUNG PAN
      SWO PE HE
You better get going then...
(belts of heads and robes of tiger fur are decidedly not vegan)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/cd/29/6b/cd296b997a3f571507ea0465e742dff9.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:43:11 pm
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OGwAAOSwpDdVW98~/s-l1600.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:52:51 pm
not going huh...
(http://www.rigpawiki.org/images/7/7e/Dorje_Drollo.JPG)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 12:54:25 pm
(https://16324ed439-custmedia.vresp.com/ce75f6685f/Guru%20Dragpo%20Charlie2%202.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:19:18 pm
Tiger & leopard skins are not vegan.
Nor are belts & head dresses made of heads.
And the stomping of followers of Sanatana & Jain Dharma destroys any attempts at glossing it as "one big happy family".
(https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTIxOFgxMDAw/z/y5MAAOSw-vlVo5~Y/$/32-Blessed-Brocade-Wood-Scroll-Tibetan-Thangka-_57.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:20:14 pm
(https://i2.wp.com/cdn1.share.slickpic.com/u/SashaLotus/Kumbum/org/09/web.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:28:28 pm
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/1/1/6/116.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:31:38 pm
Buddha was born in Nepal.
Many of these images are from Nepal.
These images are not vegan.
(http://www.tibetthanka.com/uploaded/Mahakala/IMG_1785.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:33:56 pm
Many of these images are of wrathful Amitabha (Hayagriva).
They are from Nepal, the birthplace of the Buddha.
They are not vegan, nor do they promote Sanatana or Jain Dharma, in fact diametrically opposed.
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/6/5/65.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:36:52 pm
Tiger hides are not vegan, which prohibits the use of animal products.
Sounds like someone needs a dictionary.
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/4/6/6/466.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:40:31 pm
Weak argument, the people & cultures were there before the country.
In this one, there is a brahmin cord of hair, showing the cutting off of heterodox non-Buddhist teachings.
Wearing animal skins is not vegan, let alone people skins.
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/4/8/1/481.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:43:26 pm
I really thought stupid would realize that people live in a place LONG before it comes a country.
Stupid is as Fig does apparently.
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/5/5/2/552.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:45:15 pm
Actually all you're doing is making it worse on yourself.
Even if just trolling and having a laugh, the results are going to be baaaaad...
Again, the people getting stomped are followers of Sanatana Dharma...
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/3/0/3/303.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 01:46:46 pm
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/5/8/3/583.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 21, 2017, 02:32:29 pm
I suppose if we look into the transmigration of phenomena in emptiness, there is a chance that at the flow of karma at some point your bus of consciousness will settle in a cow. This cow grew up on a poor farm in a barn where people have stopped attending the needs of animals. Your fed and brought up with wonderful love when your small and cute, but then the farmer gets bored, buy's technology that binds him to suffer in the house. You start to get hungry moving around looking for your feeder, he never appears, so you start starving, and it is the most horrible suffering you have ever experienced. It takes time to die of starvation too, three days is a very long time spent in suffering, writhing on the ground of stomach aches. Eventually you're too weak to move, and the only thing you experience for a couple of hours, is extreme weakness and stomach pains that make you want to scream. It is so painful you are trying to move faster than you are able to, wriggling around to experience something else but hunger, you can't move any faster, it's too painful to be still.

Then emptiness. Phenomena cross over to the house, and there, the hungry shade of the cow punishes the farmer for creating this suffering, forces him to interact with technology beyond our comprehension, so addicted he eventually dies of exhaustion.

Sometimes when I look at peoples normal problems, they seem just as mad as this, because it is so visible it's painful. Insanity is to choose to go with the norms of society, when we understand how and why to go beyond them, we develop as a species.

The ideal configuration of this planet would be to remove the eco-system and build an artificial infrastructure where only humans are reborn, no more animal incarnation, no more delusion, no more suffering.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 02:38:23 pm
Must be blind as well as dumb if you can't see the enemies of Buddhism (Sanatana Dharma brahmins) getting stepped on in these images...
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/9/1/7/917.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 02:39:47 pm
Animal birth is considered a lower realm, a birth due to unfavorable causes....
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/7/6/9/769.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 02:43:01 pm
Hindu Hayagriva is merely a manifestation of Amitabha, just an alternate form if you will...
Just as Avalokitesvara appears to fools who only believe in Vishnu....
More teachers who attempt to teach Sanatana Dharma, enemies of Buddhism getting stepped on:
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/9/1/5/915.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 02:45:35 pm
As this forum apparently has no mods, I have no trouble posting the 1000+ images of wrathful Buddha Dharma protectors...
Give you a glimpse of what awaits you for attempting to mislead people with counterfeit Dharma...
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/2/1/8/2183.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 02:55:01 pm
Misleading people with counterfeit Dharma is hardly compassionate.
In Buddhism it's right up there with the 5 Grave Sins.
Hence, an attempt at purifying this thread with Dharma Protectors.

(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/1/5/2/15270.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 02:58:01 pm
Never ending cycle I guess.
You keep adding diarrhea to the thread and I keep trying to purify it with Dharma images.
(http://www.tibetthanka.com/uploaded/Mahakala/IMG_1785.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 03:03:11 pm
Quote
Virupa became known as one who had not only parted the waters of the Ganges on
two occassions but had also halted the sun in its course for three days. His fame spread
far and wide. Meanwhile he continued his journey to subdue Bhimesara in the south
and to find Krishnacarin, a future disciple who it is said was a suitable candidate for the
'gradual path'. Bhimesara was ruled by a Hindu king named Narapati who was a devotee
of five hundred Yogis with plaited hair. They worshipped at a massive Shivalinga and at
an image of Mahadeva which had been installed by a previous king named Bhayasena.
They sacrificed ten of thousands of buffaloes and goats every year. Virupa arrived among
them and wrote many eulogies to the Shivalinga in Sanskrit. The king was greatly impressed
with his scholarship. He asked him to become the leader of the five hundred Yogis, an offer
which Virupa found difficult to refuse.

   During the regular worshipping ceremonies the Yogis bowed down to the image of
Mahadeva and made flower offerings. While this was going on, Virupa would pull out
a volume of the Prajnaparamita text which he kept tucked in his hair, and pay homage
to it. He never bowed to the image of Mahadeva. The Yogis became suspicious and
reported this behaviour to the king. Instead of paying heed to their allegations, the king
accused the Yogis of jealousy. "He is such a great scholar and master of the Vedas.
It is impossible that such a man does not pay homage to Mahadeva, the king of the gods.
You must be jealous of him," the king replied. However the Yogis kept on reporting
Virupa's behaviour until at last the king decided he must observe the truth himself by
attending one of these ceremonies personally. When he did, Virupa paid his homage to
the Prajnaparamita text as usual. The king was amazed. He addressed Virupa, saying,
"Why are you not bowing down to the image of Mahadeva?" "Why should I?" replied
Virupa. "He cannot bear my homage." The king then said, "There is no one more
powerful than he in the whole desire realm. Why do you say he cannot bear your homage?
You must show your respect." "Since I have no choice but to do what the sinful king
demands of me, you must forgive me," Virupa said to the image. As soon as he placed
his hands together to pay homage and said, "Namo Buddhaya" (I pay homage to the
Buddha), one third of the gigantic image cracked to pieces. When he said, "Namo
Dharmaya" (I pay homage to the Dharma), two thirds of the image cracked and when
he said, "Namo Sanghaya" (I pay homage to the Sangha), the entire figure crumbled
into pieces and fell to the ground.

   The king was shocked. With a mixture of fear and faith, he requested Virupa to restore
the statue. Thereupon Virupa instantly restored it and placed upon a black stone image of
the Great Compassionate One, Avalokiteshvara. He then said to the king, "The statue will
remain intact so long as no one removes the image of Mahakarunika. Should anyone
remove this, this statue will instantly crumble to bits." Then he left. Amongst the five hundred
Yogis was one who was dissatisfied with the behaviour of Tirthikas (heretics). Having
witnessed Virupa's wondrous qualities he developed deep devotion to him and became his
disciple. This was Krishnacharin of the East who, although never previously a follower of
the Buddhadharma, now decided to enter the path.
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/55245c3c70295c2c2f7b52935f146e0a/tumblr_npyjzxibgu1u8c4jyo1_540.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 03:09:35 pm
Quote
Virupa and his companions continued traveling south. They arrived at a place where
there was a self-arisen image of Goddess Chandika, named Sahajadevi which was
worshipped by many Hindu Yoginis. This shrine had a Trishula (a three pointed ritual
knife) which of its own accord without any human intervention would pierce through
the neck of pilgrims killing them as soon as they entered the shrine. The Yoginis would
then make offerings of flesh and blood to the image. Virupa knew about this and had
come purposely to subdue it. He instructed his two companions to remain outside
and perform special breathing meditation. The Yoginis were delighted to see Virupa
and asked him to bring his two companions inside with him. Virupa said that they
could invite in themselves, if they wished. The Yoginis went and asked the pair to
enter. But neither of them replied. The Yoginis felt the stomachs of the two meditating
disciples. Excrement emerged from wherever they touched. The Yoginis concluded
that the two were already dead and rotten, so left them undisturbed. Virupa had
seen the Trishula knives ready for slaughter and moved very fast as he entered the
shrine. He clapped his hands and the knives were instantly pulverised. Immediately
the image started jumping towards onto its shoulders. All the Yoginis began vomiting
blood and fainting as they saw this unexpected tragedy befall their god. "Aren't you
Buddhists meant to be kind and compassionate to other living beings? Please do not
do this to us," said the Yoginis when they recovered. "It is due to compassion that I
am doing this," replied Virupa.

   He placed a small votive stupa on top of the image and admitted all the Yoginis to
the practice of Buddhadharma. At this time, the boatman Dombi Heruka, who had
been with Virupa since the second parting of the Ganges was blessed to attain the
realization of a Bodhisattva at the level of the Sixth Bhumi. Virupa then sent him to
Rada province in eastern India to subdue an evil Hindu king named Dehara, who
had a palace named Kangkana. Mounted on a pregnant tiger and brandishing a
deadly snake bridle and whip, Mahasiddha Dombi Heruka subdued the king and
his subjects. They were all admitted into the path of Vajrayana.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b3/66/cf/b366cf0116b85690870b1263c2235b86.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 03:15:07 pm
Quote
Saraha was a brahmin born in eastern India in an area named Roli in the city-state of Rajni. His mother was a Dakini and he was a Daka, a spiritual being with magical powers. Although raised as a Brahmin and tutored in Brahmin law, he was secretly a Buddhist and had been taught by numerous great masters. He lived a double life, observing Brahmin law during the day and maintaining his Buddhist vows at night. Saraha enjoyed drinking alcohol and this offended the other Brahmins. They told the king of Saraha's drinking and pleaded for him to be exiled. When the king began to chastise him, Saraha stated that he did not drink and that he would gladly prove it to him and all the Brahmins. When they were all assembled, Saraha took out a pot of boiling oil and stated that if he were guilty his hand would burn in it, and then put his hand into the boiling oil and pulled it out unscathed. The Brahmins didn't care and continued to yell vicious insults at him, telling the king they had repeatedly seen him drink with their own eyes. Saraha then took a bowl of molten copper and drank it in one gulp and his throat was not burned. The Brahmins continued to tell the king they had seen him drink. He then challenged the Brahmins, saying he would get into a tank of water with one of them and whoever is guilty will sink to the bottom and when he did, the Brahmin sank and not him. He also stated that he would weigh himself with anyone of them and whoever weighed less was guilty. He weighed himself along with one of the larger Brahmins but still was heavier. The king decided that if he possessed such powers then he should be allowed to continue to drink.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Sharaha_British_Museum.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 03:25:52 pm
Calls me racist and goes on racist rant against Tibetans and Japanese...  :teehee: :lmfao:
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/535px/5/2/5/52548468.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 03:28:29 pm
This has gotten a bit boring.
You can keep screaming nonsense into your echo-chamber.
(http://www.himalayanart.org/images/items/resized/2000px/5/2/5/52548465.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 21, 2017, 03:29:37 pm
What's an echo-chamber?
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 03:34:04 pm
"Echo-chamber" is a room that echoes.
It means somewhere that you can only hear yourself, the idea that you can only hear your own words.
I think anybody who's actually read this thread has given up any idea of educating the troll by now.
There are some places places where wisdom just doesn't reach...
(https://honeyguideapps.com/sites/default/files/%281%29%20Arya%20Vajrapani_1.jpg)
with that, I'm out for a bit. might come back later if it's entertaining.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: Solodris on April 21, 2017, 04:22:10 pm
Obviously the troll have surrendered his erroneous ways. Good job.
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 08:08:55 pm
Not hateful.
The wrath is compassion.
Buddha Dharma is still very much alive.
(http://www.exoticindiaart.com/artimages/te82.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:10:57 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/names/amitabha.png)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:11:18 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/mantra/amitabha-siddham.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:11:35 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/mantra/amitabha-devanagari.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:12:15 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/mantra/shingon-amitabha.png)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:12:33 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/mantra/nembutsu-sanskrit.png)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:13:15 pm
ओं अमरणि जीवन्तये स्वाहा
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:13:34 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/mantra/amitayus-siddham.gif)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:14:22 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/mantra/nembutsu.png)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:14:54 pm
(http://www.visiblemantra.org/bija/hrih.png)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:17:11 pm
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-epbekpO2ins/VNjyXZbb1QI/AAAAAAAAHwM/4DaY4ysfF8o/s1600/Buddha%2Band%2BBaka%2BBrahma.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:17:49 pm
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RiYlvc-XTRg/Tc3yC3ET81I/AAAAAAAAUCg/zuAnRqeek8o/s1600/devas%2Bin%2BTavatimsa%2Blife-of-buddha-44%2Bforums.sgclub%2Bcom.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:20:55 pm
(http://www.photodharma.net/Malaysia/Wat-Olak-Madu-2/images/Wat-Olak-Madu-Original-00076.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 21, 2017, 09:30:02 pm
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-M_SEZYFrhgU/V9sFeBcvUfI/AAAAAAAAShs/2qZwqbiwmEMRHvDM_llID5cFFIdcaRgvACLcB/s1600/2.jpg)
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: LetGo on April 22, 2017, 07:20:30 am
That'll do troll.
That'll do...

As long as nobody comes away from this thread thinking you remotely have any idea of what you're talking about, I've done my job. Mission accomplished. :)

Have a fun weekend troll.
 :r4wheel:
 :dharma:
 :buddha:
 :buddha2:
 :anjali:
Title: Re: Amida is a real Buddha?
Post by: stillpointdancer on April 23, 2017, 03:43:10 am
Could you make the font a bit larger please? I can still see it.
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