Author Topic: Pure Land topics  (Read 442 times)

Offline Chaz

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Re: Pure Land topics
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2019, 10:28:18 am »
The Dharmakaya is the ultimate reality in Mahayana Buddhism.

No, it really isn't.  The ultimate reality in Mahayana is sunyata.  Again you are muddling up concepts from different schools, which leads to confusion.

Yes.  Dharmakaya is the ultimate basis of reality, from which all phenomena emmanate.  This is not the same as being the ultimate reality. 

According to the Wiki article, Dharmakaya sounds like a sort of ground of being for Buddhas, rather than an ultimate basis of reality, or whatever.  Though it seems to have been interpreted differently in different schools.

I'm not so sure.  I may be as you say, though.  Just the same, it would be a question of perspective.

Quote
I still struggle to understand how these various "ultimates" and the 3 bodies are consistent with sunyata.  Or are there exceptions to sunyata?

Emptiness is the most difficult subject to understand.  YOu may think you have it all figured out, but then you'll read or hear something and you realize you have it wrong.  That can go on for may years.  Because it's so difficult to understand, even on a purely intellectual level, it's as hard to teach. I think that's behind the precept of the Boddhisatva Vows that prohibit teaching sunyata to a student who is not yet ready.

No, there are no exceptions.  Oftentimes, I think questions such as yours, come from a fundamental misunderstanding sunyatha. I don't mean that as a slight, put-down or insult.  Jut the same I think it's atleast honest.  Of all the people I know, only 5 have what I would call a deep, abiing unstrstanding of Sunyatha.

If you don't understand, seek clarity.


Quote
"The doctrine says that a Buddha has three kāyas or bodies:
The Dharmakāya, Buddha nature, law and order, or Truth body which embodies the very principle of enlightenment and knows no limits or boundaries;
The Saṃbhogakāya, Buddha fields or body of mutual enjoyment which is a body of bliss or clear light manifestation;
The Nirmāṇakāya, Buddha incarnation, Emanation, or created body which manifests in time and space.[1] [2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trikaya

That is straight-up mainstream Mahayana.  And this is where we are getting confused by what is asserted to be Shanran's teaching on Amida and Purelands

Nirmnayakaya is the fleash/blood Buddha

Sambogakaya are beings such as Amida, Tara and so on.  Pure Lands are Sabogakaya

Dharmakaya is just plain confusing.

Offline Dharma Flower

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Re: Pure Land topics
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2019, 03:18:53 pm »
Shinran based his understanding of Amida on T’an-luan, who had been influenced by the two-truths doctrine:

Quote
In this lineage, T'an-luan was the first to expound an enduring Buddhology.

Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have two Dharmakayas (Dharma-bodies): Dharmakaya of Dharma-nature (ultimate truth) and Dharmakaya of Expediency (upaya, relative truth). From the Dharmakaya of Dharma-nature originates the Dharmakaya of Expediency; through the Dharmakayas of Expediency the Dharmakaya of Dharma-nature is revealed. These two Dharmakayas are different but inseparable; they are one but not the same.

A little further on in the text we discover the full weight of T'an-luan’s Madhyamika theory being brought to bear upon his immortal philosophical underpinning of the Pure Land Way:

Because Dharma-nature is Nirvana, Dharmakaya is formless. Because it is formless there is no form which it cannot manifest. Therefore the body adorned with the marks of excellence is itself the Dharmakaya.1
https://www.georgegatenby.id.au/kw54.htm

Rather than a literal Buddha, Amida is a upaya-symbol of the Dharmakaya itself, the ultimate truth of all reality.

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Re: Pure Land topics
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2019, 03:23:07 pm »
This was published by the Higashi Honganji, the second largest branch of Jodo Shinshu Buddhism in Japan:

Quote
In Namu Amida Butsu, he saw the vehicle that enabled him to see the truth about himself. Namu represented the ignorance that creates suffering for the “self” and for those around him, while Amida Butsu represented the truth extolled by Buddhism, the reality of life as described in the Four Noble Truths.

Pure Land Buddhism has often been incorrectly described as a theistic version of Buddhism, with Amida Buddha in the role of a god leading us to “salvation” expressed as birth in the Pure Land. Shinran’s understanding, however, was that Amida Buddha was not a mythical Buddha who promised salvation to anyone who repeated his name, but rather, a symbol for the Dharma itself.
http://jodo-shinshu.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/MON_vol.1-P3-P4.pdf


Rather than a literal flesh and blood Buddha, Amida is symbolic of ultimate truth itself.

Offline Chaz

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Re: Pure Land topics
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2019, 06:43:13 pm »
This was published by the Higashi Honganji, the second largest branch of Jodo Shinshu Buddhism in Japan:

Quote
In Namu Amida Butsu, he saw the vehicle that enabled him to see the truth about himself. Namu represented the ignorance that creates suffering for the “self” and for those around him, while Amida Butsu represented the truth extolled by Buddhism, the reality of life as described in the Four Noble Truths.

Pure Land Buddhism has often been incorrectly described as a theistic version of Buddhism, with Amida Buddha in the role of a god leading us to “salvation” expressed as birth in the Pure Land. Shinran’s understanding, however, was that Amida Buddha was not a mythical Buddha who promised salvation to anyone who repeated his name, but rather, a symbol for the Dharma itself.
http://jodo-shinshu.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/MON_vol.1-P3-P4.pdf


Rather than a literal flesh and blood Buddha, Amida is symbolic of ultimate truth itself.


What you assert (Amida is symbolic of ultimate truth itself) isn't really supported by your quote.

Offline Dharma Flower

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Re: Pure Land topics
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2019, 08:25:58 pm »
This was published by the Higashi Honganji, the second largest branch of Jodo Shinshu Buddhism in Japan:

Quote
In Namu Amida Butsu, he saw the vehicle that enabled him to see the truth about himself. Namu represented the ignorance that creates suffering for the “self” and for those around him, while Amida Butsu represented the truth extolled by Buddhism, the reality of life as described in the Four Noble Truths.

Pure Land Buddhism has often been incorrectly described as a theistic version of Buddhism, with Amida Buddha in the role of a god leading us to “salvation” expressed as birth in the Pure Land. Shinran’s understanding, however, was that Amida Buddha was not a mythical Buddha who promised salvation to anyone who repeated his name, but rather, a symbol for the Dharma itself.
http://jodo-shinshu.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/MON_vol.1-P3-P4.pdf


Rather than a literal flesh and blood Buddha, Amida is symbolic of ultimate truth itself.


What you assert (Amida is symbolic of ultimate truth itself) isn't really supported by your quote.


In Buddhism, the word "Dharma" has many connotations. Rather than simply the teaching of the Buddha, the Dharma is also the cosmic order and reality which the Buddha awakened to in his enlightenment.

This is from In the Buddha's Words by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Quote
Dhamma. The cosmic principle of truth, lawfulness, and virtue discov-
ered, fathomed, and taught by the Buddha; the Buddha's teaching as an
expression of that principle; the teaching that leads to enlightenment and
liberation.
https://archive.org/stream/InTheBuddhasWords/In%20the%20Buddha%27s%20Words_djvu.txt

Offline Chaz

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Re: Pure Land topics
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2019, 08:27:43 pm »
This was published by the Higashi Honganji, the second largest branch of Jodo Shinshu Buddhism in Japan:

Quote
In Namu Amida Butsu, he saw the vehicle that enabled him to see the truth about himself. Namu represented the ignorance that creates suffering for the “self” and for those around him, while Amida Butsu represented the truth extolled by Buddhism, the reality of life as described in the Four Noble Truths.

Pure Land Buddhism has often been incorrectly described as a theistic version of Buddhism, with Amida Buddha in the role of a god leading us to “salvation” expressed as birth in the Pure Land. Shinran’s understanding, however, was that Amida Buddha was not a mythical Buddha who promised salvation to anyone who repeated his name, but rather, a symbol for the Dharma itself.
http://jodo-shinshu.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/MON_vol.1-P3-P4.pdf


Rather than a literal flesh and blood Buddha, Amida is symbolic of ultimate truth itself.


What you assert (Amida is symbolic of ultimate truth itself) isn't really supported by your quote.


In Buddhism, the word "Dharma" has many connotations. Rather than simply the teaching of the Buddha, the Dharma is also the cosmic order and reality which the Buddha awakened to in his enlightenment.

This is from In the Buddha's Words by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Quote
Dhamma. The cosmic principle of truth, lawfulness, and virtue discov-
ered, fathomed, and taught by the Buddha; the Buddha's teaching as an
expression of that principle; the teaching that leads to enlightenment and
liberation.
https://archive.org/stream/InTheBuddhasWords/In%20the%20Buddha%27s%20Words_djvu.txt



And that doesn't really resolve the question. :-(
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 08:40:02 am by Chaz »

 


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