The White Sangha (white robed) Ngagpa

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[Bodhicandra]

Returning to the thread,  what particularly attracted me to a Nyingma Ngagpa-led lineage was that here 'lay' people / house-holders are 'full citizens'.  I felt that with the other schools, as a lay person, I would always be of lower 'status'. One would feel the pressure to become a monk / nun to make spiritual progress and I didn't believe that should be necessary.

With Dzogchen, being a monk / nun is said to be a handicap!

One of the Buddha's most advanced students - Vimalakirti -  was a householder The account of how terrified the other disciples were of him is hilarious (in 'Ordinary Enlightenment', Luk, C).

In the Gandavyuha Sutra (part of the Avatamsaka Sutra - the 'Handbook for Bodhisattvas' as I think of it) the young trainee-Bodhisattva Sudhana  is sent to learn from52 masters on his path to enlightenment. I've not checked the numbers myself, but one of my fellow students remarked that these 52 are roughly 50:50 monastics/householders and roughly 50:50 male/female.

[heart]

With Dzogchen, being a monk / nun is said to be a handicap!

Where are you getting that idea from? Try telling Matthieu Ricard that.

/magnus

[santamonicacj]

....the tibetan female lineages are gone, no?  Or am I thinking of Tibetan Nun (Vinaya) Lineages?

The Tibetans only got the novice ordination for nuns. The full ordination for a nin (Vinaya) never made it over the Himalayas.

[Pema Rigdzin]

With Dzogchen, being a monk / nun is said to be a handicap!

Where are you getting that idea from? Try telling Matthieu Ricard that.

/magnus

No, try telling it to Longchenpa, or Paltrul Rinpoche, or Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, or Jamgon Kongtrul. Try telling it to the many, many realized Dzogchen lineage holders over the centuries who were monks haha!


Bodhicandra,

I have no idea where you're getting this mistaken idea from. Possessing full monastic ordination does not hinder one at all in any of the yanas, LEAST of all Dzogchen. The only situation that would require that one give back one's monastic vows would be if one were to need to practice with a physical consort instead of merely a mental consort. But that has nothing to do with Dzogchen. You also mentioned something about monks and nuns not being able to practice inner tantra because they can't partake of meat or alcohol? Well, first of all there's no vow against eating meat and many monks and nuns of almost all Buddhist traditions eat meat often. As for alcohol, if you study the great commentaries on the three levels of vows (pratimoksha, bodhicitta, and tantric vows), you will see that at the time of empowerment, the two lower sets of vows transform and take on the nature of the tantric vows and therefore cannot be broken by properly observing the tantric vows. As a Vajrayana monk or nun, one still has to maintain the monastic vows according to the Vinaya, except when observation of a tantric vow requires something different. So, for instance, since alcohol is a samaya substance partaken of at the time of a ganachakra, empowerment, or other occasion of inner tantric practice, observing one's tantric vows and partaking of the tiny sip of alcohol at that time is not breaking monk's or nun's vows. Neither is eating past midday. Aside from the mere fact that tantric vows supersede monastic and bodhicitta vows, this is not a contradiction because at such an occasion, one's view is not mundane at all. Oneself, one's environment, the offering substances, and everything is blessed by mantra, mudra, and samadhi and one's consumption of the samaya/empowerment substances is blessed by the view free of clinging, acceptance, rejection, pure/impure, and without distraction. If one is not practicing with this view, or at least attempting to as best one can, then one is breaking one's tantric vows, which are far weightier karmically than the pratimoksha and bodhisattva vows.

As for liking the Nyingma lineages because householders seem to have more equal "status" to monastics, I have to ask you what status has to do with the Dharma? Aside from that, HH Dudjom Rinpoche, the great ngakpa yogi who was the supreme head of our Nyingma lineage until his passing in the 80's, clearly stated that when monastics and ngakpas are being seated in the temple, monastics are to be aacorded the honor of being seated first, and only after them are the ngakpas seated. He also stated, in his commentary to Ngari Panchen's "Ascertaining the Three Vows," the famous Nyingma manual on the three levels of vows and how to observe them together without contradiction, that in terms of levels of ordination, a vajra master who possesses full monastic ordination in addition to bodhisattva and tantric vows is the most qualified to be a vajra master. Of course when a master's realization is considered, then realization of the authentic view, as it is, is the very highest ordination and trumps any kind of ordination in terms of vows. So, again, this is coming from a consummate scholar and yogi of the White Sangha, HH Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje. And it makes perfect sense because all Vajrayana practitioners hold the outer, inner, and secret tantric samayas, but then Vajrayana practitioners who are also monks and nuns hold those vows PLUS monastic vows, so their training in ethical discipline is theoretically held to an even tighter standard.  

[Pema Rigdzin]

I have for a long time felt especially connected to Yeshe Tsogyal and Machik Labdrön.  I'm only familiar with Chöd as far as Tibetan female lineages go anyway, but from what I understand the tibetan female lineages are gone, no?  Or am I thinking of Tibetan Nun (Vinaya) Lineages?  And what do you mean when you say collected by Indian Buddhists?  

I have a strong pull towards certain practices, but I just find that not being male, it seems (these days) the highest attainments are reserved for largely men, as all the heads or spiritual leaders in the Buddhist world are largely male-dominated.  I'm not sure if this is because the world is largely male-dominated (from the arena of business, politics, high-ranking government, military, etc) and this proportion carries over in Buddhism or if it's because the female population is there, simply not represented.

On some level though, this continues to bother me...  it just seems so slanted in one direction...-how come?

You're thinking of the full monastic ordination lineage for women, which never made it to Tibet, unlike the female novice and intermediate ordination. However, that is going to change as a number of nuns of Tibetan lineages have gone to places like Taiwan where another authentic Vinaya lineage exists where the full nun ordination made it and remains unbroken. I believe enough Tibetan Buddhist nuns now possess the full ordination that they have the quorum necessary to perform the full nun ordination.

Also, like someone else said, please don't confuse attainment with status. Great masters like Padmasambhava have stated clearly and unequivocally that gender makes no difference whatsoever when it comes to one's potential for realization and attaining buddhahood. It's simply the case that for the most part, this world has been male-dominated for a very long time, so this is reflected in social sturctures, even spiritual ones unfortunately. Eventually, I'm sure, that will change. But as long as there has been Vajrayana in this world, there have been great realized yoginis. The question of female lineage holders calls to mind a question about that put to either Dzongsar Khyentse or Dzigar Kongtrul by a female student... She was bothered by the fact that there aren't more female lineage holders and high lamas and she thought there ought to be. I can only paraphrase the question and his response, but it was something like "if you'd like that to change, that is now up to you ladies." Basically, he was saying that the old walls limiting females' access to study and practice are crumbling in the East, as there are more and more male Rinpoches who are putting a lot into supporting and uplifting nuns and giving them full access to the same curriculum as monks, and those walls are non-existent for Western female Vajrayana practitioners; so for the first time, women are getting equal access to both education (both worldly and Dharmic) and practice and can therefore study and practice their way to that level realization and start taking leadership roles if they want to. I believe it was Khyentse Rinpoche, actually. And judging by his very 21st century mentality, I'm sure he made his comments with a certain amount of encouragement and prodding.

[Yeshe Zopa]

With Dzogchen, being a monk / nun is said to be a handicap!

Where are you getting that idea from? Try telling Matthieu Ricard that.

/magnus

No, try telling it to Longchenpa, or Paltrul Rinpoche, or Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, or Jamgon Kongtrul. Try telling it to the many, many realized Dzogchen lineage holders over the centuries who were monks haha!


Bodhicandra,

I have no idea where you're getting this mistaken idea from. Possessing full monastic ordination does not hinder one at all in any of the yanas, LEAST of all Dzogchen. The only situation that would require that one give back one's monastic vows would be if one were to need to practice with a physical consort instead of merely a mental consort. But that has nothing to do with Dzogchen. You also mentioned something about monks and nuns not being able to practice inner tantra because they can't partake of meat or alcohol? Well, first of all there's no vow against eating meat and many monks and nuns of almost all Buddhist traditions eat meat often. As for alcohol, if you study the great commentaries on the three levels of vows (pratimoksha, bodhicitta, and tantric vows), you will see that at the time of empowerment, the two lower sets of vows transform and take on the nature of the tantric vows and therefore cannot be broken by properly observing the tantric vows. As a Vajrayana monk or nun, one still has to maintain the monastic vows according to the Vinaya, except when observation of a tantric vow requires something different. So, for instance, since alcohol is a samaya substance partaken of at the time of a ganachakra, empowerment, or other occasion of inner tantric practice, observing one's tantric vows and partaking of the tiny sip of alcohol at that time is not breaking monk's or nun's vows. Neither is eating past midday. Aside from the mere fact that tantric vows supersede monastic and bodhicitta vows, this is not a contradiction because at such an occasion, one's view is not mundane at all. Oneself, one's environment, the offering substances, and everything is blessed by mantra, mudra, and samadhi and one's consumption of the samaya/empowerment substances is blessed by the view free of clinging, acceptance, rejection, pure/impure, and without distraction. If one is not practicing with this view, or at least attempting to as best one can, then one is breaking one's tantric vows, which are far weightier karmically than the pratimoksha and bodhisattva vows.

As for liking the Nyingma lineages because householders seem to have more equal "status" to monastics, I have to ask you what status has to do with the Dharma? Aside from that, HH Dudjom Rinpoche, the great ngakpa yogi who was the supreme head of our Nyingma lineage until his passing in the 80's, clearly stated that when monastics and ngakpas are being seated in the temple, monastics are to be aacorded the honor of being seated first, and only after them are the ngakpas seated. He also stated, in his commentary to Ngari Panchen's "Ascertaining the Three Vows," the famous Nyingma manual on the three levels of vows and how to observe them together without contradiction, that in terms of levels of ordination, a vajra master who possesses full monastic ordination in addition to bodhisattva and tantric vows is the most qualified to be a vajra master. Of course when a master's realization is considered, then realization of the authentic view, as it is, is the very highest ordination and trumps any kind of ordination in terms of vows. So, again, this is coming from a consummate scholar and yogi of the White Sangha, HH Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje. And it makes perfect sense because all Vajrayana practitioners hold the outer, inner, and secret tantric samayas, but then Vajrayana practitioners who are also monks and nuns hold those vows PLUS monastic vows, so their training in ethical discipline is theoretically held to an even tighter standard.  

Thanks for clarifying that, Pema.

The first branch Tantric Vow repeats the instruction not to kill, steal, lie, engage in sexual misconduct or intoxicants. I have seen westerners refuse the meat and/or alcohol within tantric rituals, as they wish to be teetotal or vegetarian, but they would seem to have completely missed the point and remain rooted in mundane view- a danger of allowing inexperienced practitioners to enter HYT, I guess.

I see no problem in following a Vajra Master who is Ngagpa or ordained, of either gender, as long as they have the required attainments and transmissions.  I do have a problem with westerners,  ordained as novices with a few weeks training, delivering empowerments in which they are told their Vajra master will channel himself through them. Yes, this is happening all over the world. :(

[santamonicacj]

I do have a problem with westerners,  ordained as novices with a few weeks training, delivering empowerments in which they are told their Vajra master will channel himself through them. Yes, this is happening all over the world. :(

You must be joking.

No wonder the Tibetans don't trust us.

[Yeshe Zopa]

I do have a problem with westerners,  ordained as novices with a few weeks training, delivering empowerments in which they are told their Vajra master will channel himself through them. Yes, this is happening all over the world. :(

You must be joking.

No wonder the Tibetans don't trust us.

Psssst.  Strictly between the two of us, as nobody is watching, this is standard NKT practice with those who do not follow Vinaya ordination and take vows invented by the NKT which are roughly equivalent to novice vows.  Some even give HYT empowerments.   

[haydenlaw]

[snipping quote]

As for liking the Nyingma lineages because householders seem to have more equal "status" to monastics, I have to ask you what status has to do with the Dharma?

Of course you are correct about status in the worldly sense, but there's another aspect to this.  I think, as a general rule, monastics have greater access to the Dharma teaching and to the great teachers.  And between monks and nuns, monks have greater access.  This varies greatly, but there is plenty of documentation of the situation (Ani Tenzin Palmo is devoting her life to obtaining better training for nuns, and has written extensively about it.)  There are of course many exceptions - but if one has a 'lay' teacher or ngagkpa teacher who is highly accomplished, the issue becomes simply how much one is willing to put oneself into it, not whether or not one ordains.

H.
http://lawsview.typepad.com/beingbuddhist/

[Jikan]

I do have a problem with westerners,  ordained as novices with a few weeks training, delivering empowerments in which they are told their Vajra master will channel himself through them. Yes, this is happening all over the world. :(

You must be joking.

No wonder the Tibetans don't trust us.

Psssst.  Strictly between the two of us, as nobody is watching, this is standard NKT practice with those who do not follow Vinaya ordination and take vows invented by the NKT which are roughly equivalent to novice vows.  Some even give HYT empowerments.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqandfwFTBc

On the question of Vajrayana and Vinaya and lay practice and vows, it may be useful to compare the ngakpa tradition of Tibet with the danka system in Japanese vajrayana schools (Shingon & Tendai), as well as the alternative bodhisattva vow based ordination platform established on Mt Hiei by Dengyo Daishi (our school's Padmasambhava if you will).  Comparative work like this can be useful to contextualize what works in what context, and how.  (10 major, 48 minor precepts... sound familiar?)

[conebeckham]

"Ngakpa" means, really, a Mantra practitioner.   A Tantrika.  In theory, anyone who has taken on the samayas of HYT or Mahayoga or above, Sarma or Nyingma, is a Ngakpa or Ngakma.

I know there are some specific empowerments, commitments, and practices, especially in Nyingma lineages, relating to the growing of one's hair, not owning property, etc.  The wearing of "white" is most often used to signify "non-monastic" status, or "noncelibate status," to be more precise.  I'm not sure there's "one" meaning, or "status," that is shared by all who wear white robes, as opposed to Maroon or yellow....nor whether the "striped zen" means the same thing, for example, with Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche's disciples and, say, Chagdud Rinpoche's disciples.

All of this is about outer differentiation.   But it doesn't matter much, in the final analysis--what really matters, and what REALLY makes a person a ngakpa, is the degree to which said person abides by the Tantric Samayas.  It is possible, for example, that there are individual ordained, maroon-robed monastics who uphold Tantric samaya to a greater degree than certain other individuals who wear white, are noncelibate, and have long hair.   And vice versa.

[Yeshe Zopa]

"Ngakpa" means, really, a Mantra practitioner.   A Tantrika.  In theory, anyone who has taken on the samayas of HYT or Mahayoga or above, Sarma or Nyingma, is a Ngakpa or Ngakma.

I know there are some specific empowerments, commitments, and practices, especially in Nyingma lineages, relating to the growing of one's hair, not owning property, etc.  The wearing of "white" is most often used to signify "non-monastic" status, or "noncelibate status," to be more precise.  I'm not sure there's "one" meaning, or "status," that is shared by all who wear white robes, as opposed to Maroon or yellow....nor whether the "striped zen" means the same thing, for example, with Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche's disciples and, say, Chagdud Rinpoche's disciples.

All of this is about outer differentiation.   But it doesn't matter much, in the final analysis--what really matters, and what REALLY makes a person a ngakpa, is the degree to which said person abides by the Tantric Samayas.  It is possible, for example, that there are individual ordained, maroon-robed monastics who uphold Tantric samaya to a greater degree than certain other individuals who wear white, are noncelibate, and have long hair.   And vice versa.

Very true.  Choosing a guru is difficult enough, but one must not judge by what they wear.

P.S.  I thought the practitioner was called a Tantrik, and the practices referred to as Tantrika.

[gregkavarnos]

You must be joking.

No wonder the Tibetans don't trust us.

and what makes you think that tibetans trust tibetans?
 

[crazycloud]

I do have a problem with westerners,  ordained as novices with a few weeks training, delivering empowerments in which they are told their Vajra master will channel himself through them. Yes, this is happening all over the world. :(

You must be joking.

No wonder the Tibetans don't trust us.

Psssst.  Strictly between the two of us, as nobody is watching, this is standard NKT practice with those who do not follow Vinaya ordination and take vows invented by the NKT which are roughly equivalent to novice vows.  Some even give HYT empowerments.   

This post is in the nature of exaggeration. The Nyingma is an ancient and glorious school, why would its practitioners need to spread untruths on the internet?

No one is giving empowerments in the NKT with only a few weeks training, and they are required to complete all the standard preliminaries required for giving an empowerment. It is true that they are not ordained according to the vinaya, but what has this got to do with granting empowerments?

As far as "their Vajra master will channel himself through them," this is true. Who do you think is giving empowerments in your school? The empowering teacher self-generates as the deity, which in tantra is always inseperable from ones guru. You think ordinary beings can grant empowerment?!?

(Of course if the empowering teacher is a Buddha, like some of the great lamas, they give the empowerment themself....)

Some even give HYT empowerments.

Completely false, only 2 or three people have EVER given HYT empowerments in the NKT, Geshe Kelsang is very strict about this. The empowerments which you (somewhat incorrectly) describe above are always Jenangs, blessing empowerments with no commitments.

Since we all have to live here, why not get along, or at least not criticize? There are rumors of Gelugs criticizing Nyingma in the past, I find this shameful. I'm sure they thought they were "right." So now many feel like they should criticize NKT, feeling it is ok becasue they are "right."

It only drags Tibet's sectarian history into the west. Of course, criticizing or debating with a good motivation is great, and I'm always up for a good online dust-up...

ps- Some NKT memebers like the Nyingmas and read their writings, forums and debates, so please don't assume you won't be overheard... 

[Yeshe Zopa]

I do have a problem with westerners,  ordained as novices with a few weeks training, delivering empowerments in which they are told their Vajra master will channel himself through them. Yes, this is happening all over the world. :(

You must be joking.

No wonder the Tibetans don't trust us.

Psssst.  Strictly between the two of us, as nobody is watching, this is standard NKT practice with those who do not follow Vinaya ordination and take vows invented by the NKT which are roughly equivalent to novice vows.  Some even give HYT empowerments.  

This post is in the nature of exaggeration. The Nyingma is an ancient and glorious school, why would its practitioners need to spread untruths on the internet?

No one is giving empowerments in the NKT with only a few weeks training, and they are required to complete all the standard preliminaries required for giving an empowerment. It is true that they are not ordained according to the vinaya, but what has this got to do with granting empowerments?

As far as "their Vajra master will channel himself through them," this is true. Who do you think is giving empowerments in your school? The empowering teacher self-generates as the deity, which in tantra is always inseperable from ones guru. You think ordinary beings can grant empowerment?!?

(Of course if the empowering teacher is a Buddha, like some of the great lamas, they give the empowerment themself....)

Some even give HYT empowerments.

Completely false, only 2 or three people have EVER given HYT empowerments in the NKT, Geshe Kelsang is very strict about this. The empowerments which you (somewhat incorrectly) describe above are always Jenangs, blessing empowerments with no commitments.

Since we all have to live here, why not get along, or at least not criticize? There are rumors of Gelugs criticizing Nyingma in the past, I find this shameful. I'm sure they thought they were "right." So now many feel like they should criticize NKT, feeling it is ok becasue they are "right."

It only drags Tibet's sectarian history into the west. Of course, criticizing or debating with a good motivation is great, and I'm always up for a good online dust-up...

ps- Some NKT members like the Nyingmas and read their writings, forums and debates, so please don't assume you won't be overheard...  

Really?  Rather than launching into accusations, perhaps a little reading around the forum and asking a few questions would have been prudent.

Not being a Nyingmapa, I wouldn't know, but I do admire that tradition enormously.  I do know a little of the NKT after spending a quite a number of years attending.  Hope you enjoyed the Summer Festival by the way.

Some of your points are inaccurate, but as they relate to the NKT I won't pursue them here, other than briefly to refute your claims.  I have personal experience of all I have written.  There may be a hint for you if you pop over to the NKT threads and read who has provided material there.  I have undergone the HYT empowerment with GKG and you are utterly incorrect in that there are considerable commitments, for example to 6 session yoga, mantra recitation etc. as well as the Tantric Vows.

Empowerments have little to do with ordination, you agree - as the existence of this thread obviously shows.  However, I can assure you that HYT empowerments have been given by others for some time, in addition to the two latest sucessors to GKG, who I assume will have been trained.

How can it be false of me to assert that 'some' teachers other than GKG have given HYT empowerments when you admit to 2 or 3 yourself?

I would welcome an explanation of the preparation received by RT's and others who give empowerments in comparison with those at Gelugpa monasteries, which is where GKG obtained his training and so is a fair comparison.

Rather than clutter up a Nyingma thread, you may start a new thread in the NKT forum about Tantric Masters and Training in the NKT? Actually, I'll do it and then you can post there and tell other NKT members all about the training - a brief outline will do.

Here's an outline of the training of a Gelugpa monk:

After 15-20 years of full time study to become a Geshe, they may then attend a Tantric College for several more years (I understand 2 is a minimum).

You really think the part-time classes at a Dharma Centre stack up?

Welcome to Free Sangha btw - a strange way to introduce yourself, but very welcome anyway.