HHDL, Obama and China

Dear guest! Please consider joining FreeSangha. You'll be able to take part in the discussions and you also get access to our chat and the Danger Zone topics!

[MJH]

Another article from the BBC. This one is about a possible meeting between HHDL & Obama and China's reaction if the meeting takes place.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8492608.stm

[Bodhisatta2010]

May both of their photographs of opportunity accurately reflect the process of birth, aging, disease, death, and rebirth.

May the results of their discussions reduce the harm being done to sentient beings.

May the outcome of their talks result in millions of those engaged in violence finding Right Livelihoods".

May the karmic consequences of their conversation cause a reduction in ecological and environmental damage to our family of all life on this planet.

May HHDL loan The U.S. enough money to pay off their debt obligations to The People's Republic of China and thereby reduce the poverty of U.S. & PRC children for decades to come.

May HHDL open many Tibetan Monasteries in The U.S. so that folks who are losing their homes have a place to live and to learn The Dhamma.

[Yeshe]

It sickens me when I see the West being 'diplomatic' and seeking to avoid upsetting the Chinese government.

Right Speech at the meeting should include hugely publicised criticism of Chinese human rights abuses.

Not to mention those of the USA.

From over here the snippets of news I have seen makes it look like Obama was given a Noble Peace Prize for talking about peace whilst continuing Bush's war and the degradation of humans within Guantanamo Bay.  I don't hold the people who award the prize in high esteem, as may be evident. ;)

In my cynical attitude towards politicians in general, it may be that keeping Google in China is currently more of an issue, which may affect news coverage.
Of course, the US would never, ever use Google as a spying medium like those nasty Chinese people. LOL

With regard to the meeting, I hope they actually DO something as well as shake hands and smile, and at least use the inevitable press conference to speak up against abuses of human rights - assuming they can persuade the world that their own hands are clean. ;)

[Monkey Mind]

I have heard that HHDL is notorious for giving world leaders the cold shoulder if they do not seem sincere. Will be interesting to see what comes of this. Ron makes an interesting point- clearly any US politician has a conflict of interest when meeting with HHDL.

[Tsongkhapafan]

May the mixing of politics and religion cease

[Caz]

May the mixing of politics and religion cease

I agree. 

[humanitas]

May the mixing of politics and religion cease

Impossible.  Religion is inherently political.  Once you give something solid structure or an organized form you enter the world of "politics"  and religion by definition tends to be a structure that many can follow.  Since the whole structure is a political construct, you will never see one without the other.

awakening however is a universally human experience, therefore not inherently political...

May awakening for all sentient beings be apolitical however, might make a nice aspiration.

[Caz]

Good point Ogyen. 

[santamonicacj]

May the mixing of politics and religion cease

Impossible.  Religion is inherently political.  Once you give something solid structure or an organized form you enter the world of "politics"  and religion by definition tends to be a structure that many can follow.  Since the whole structure is a political construct, you will never see one without the other.

awakening however is a universally human experience, therefore not inherently political...

May awakening for all sentient beings be apolitical however, might make a nice aspiration.

If I may I'd like to nit-pick for a moment:

Religion is not inherently political. My teacher once said, "The same distinction should be made between church and religion as between school and education." Churches are almost always political. The Buddha didn't make political statements unless He said something that I don't know about.

As historically compelling as OC's perspective seems (about churches) it is not completely impossible. 12 Step programs (which are a generic form of spirituality) also have a system of 12 traditions that hugely inhibit politics. There are no professional AAs. Nobody can get rich, famous (as in anonymous) or powerful because of it. (This neutralizes six of the eight worldly dharmas.) Anything like a large facility has to be separately incorporated and managed so that they can be freely discarded so as to separate the material from the spiritual. Also they can't be aligned with any other organization or issue. So no ecology, immigration, health care, whatever affiliations.

Can I imagine a Buddhist version of this? Not really, and I've tried. So for all intents and purposes OC's point still stands, just not as an impossibility.

Sorry to be a nit-picker.

[humanitas]

Fascinating perspective, SMCJ.  I will have to add that I would agree with you, except for the part of 12 Step being a "spiritual" program even if described as generic spiritual.  It is not a spiritual program, it is like a diet for a diabetic, it's a survival-oriented program.   If people would like to attribute spiritual meaning to this program, ah well that's the same as the mistake of the school for the education...

sorry, i'm nitpicking too...

[Resident]

MLK mixed politics and religion. So did Gandhi and Thich Nhat Hanh so did Bishop Desmond Tutu. They weren't politicians but they took political positions for moral/religious reasons. They were outspoken about them and used religion to rally people and give their sentiments a special authority.

HHDL is not a perfect man. I strongly disagree with his handling of the Shugden issue. But if I were a Tibetan and saw my whole society trampled and defaced by a foreign power as if my country was some huge metaphor for the Buddhist concept of impermanence. If I saw thousands of monasteries destroyed and hundreds of thousands of my countrymen killed. If I saw any remnants of political autonomy stripped away, any cultural and religious legacy watered down and suppressed. If I saw thousands of foreign people imported into my country with the specific goal of changing its demographic  and cultural character. If I saw my capital city turned into some crude Disneyland for Western and Chinese tourists. Here stands an atheist state that (with a straight face) proclaims for itself the power to choose the next reincarnation of the lamas. An intricate culture and faith twisted by a communist bureaucracy into a dark joke.

If I saw all these things then I would be very happy indeed to have a refuge from that suffering in the Dalai Lama. A sense of independence, defiance and tradition embodied in a single person. Here's a man who spent his whole life at the intersection of politics and "religion." How many countries did he conquer? How many thousands are dead because of him?

Although I am not a Tibetan. I see no evidence that most Tibetans feel differently. Of all the displaced people without a state, they are blessed to have an advocate and leader that they have.

If anything HHDL is an argument for the mixing politics and religion, not against it.     

[santamonicacj]

If anything HHDL is an argument for the mixing politics and religion, not against it.      

I am not an expert on the activities of HHDL, but over the past 30 years I have been been to various teachings of his, read about him, read some of his writings, etc. Unlike the other leaders you mention he seems to separate his Dharma teachings and his politics. When he talks about politics he does not use Dharma as a justification (unless he is justifying non-violence), and when he teaches Dharma he keeps politics out. Given that he was born wearing both hats that seems to me to be quite a modern, cosmopolitan, western-oriented mode of operating.
 
I haven't researched everything he has said and done, that's just sort of how I've noticed him work. It's very possible he does mix them and I just haven't been around to see it.

[Resident]

I understand and respect your position.

IMO he is destined to be at the intersection of the two. Obviously he doesn't talk about Dharma when meeting with American politicians but the only reason he has a political leadership role is his inherently religious position. The religious and political leader of Tibetans is embodied in the same person. And I think that in this instance it is a good thing, because HHDL provides a single and coherent message for a community that could have easily been forgotten without such a leader. In fact, without HHDL's presence and the appeal of Tibetan culture, it is hard to imagine Free Tibet being as relevant of an issue in the West as it is. Ever see a bumper sticker for a free Kurdistan?

But I think, my point is bigger then Tibet. I just fundamentally disagree with the premise that politics and religion shouldn't mix. Should have abolitionists forsaken their Christian arguments against slavery because that was mixing politics with religion? Should have Thich Nhat Hanh not applied the idea of engaged Buddhism during the Vietnam war because doing so was -in a way- mixing religion with politics?

When Pakistan was separating from India, Gandhi inspired by his religious views played a huge role in temping down the violence between Muslims and Hindus. Thousands of people still died when the two went their separate ways but Gandhi played a central role between preventing a bloodier outcome and its important to note that all his political authority as well as his trademark emphasis on non-violence came out of his religious beliefs. And some of Gandhi inspiration came from Tolstoy who believed that Christianity should be unconditionally pacifistic. And of course, MLK was inspired by Gandhi. Basically, I was trying to illustrate a chain of non-violent, cross-cultural religious tradition that impacted the modern world in radically positive way. And that should be considered a counterweight when so many look at radical Islam as the only place where politics and religion meet.

That's why I strongly disagree with a blanket condemnation of all interconnection of politics and religion. In the world -as I see it- the results of mixing political beliefs and politics are not singularly bad.

[MJH]

A little more from the BBC......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8511912.stm

[swampflower]

May HHDL loan The U.S. enough money to pay off their debt obligations to The People's Republic of China and thereby reduce the poverty of U.S. & PRC children for decades to come.

May HHDL open many Tibetan Monasteries in The U.S. so that folks who are losing their homes have a place to live and to learn The Dhamma.

Come again? 
How do you think His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama could possibly have money to lend?
Also I doubt that monasteries make for homeless shelters.

Om Tare Tuttare Ture Svaha