Author Topic: Samana Johann (Hanzze)  (Read 814 times)

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2017, 01:56:19 pm »
Let's leave it at that. you are too seriously buddhist which is why I think it will be impossible for us to be on the same page.

'I' am also an extremely serious Buddhist - serious about viewing everything is anatta (not-self), emptiness (sunnata) & mere elements (dhatu); very serious about being light, happy, joyful & free; very serious about not getting too serious.  :namaste:


Offline VisuddhiRaptor

  • Member
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2017, 02:17:34 pm »
Hi there VisuddhiRaptor,

Seeing as you are new here, you might want to read the Terms of Service for the forum.


Thank you Sir. I thought my posts were on-topic however since they raised your concern, I will cease to post now on this topic.

Thank you for your service here.  :namaste:

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2017, 05:13:11 pm »
Let's leave it at that. you are too seriously buddhist which is why I think it will be impossible for us to be on the same page.


Atma is already history, being the nature of birth, and this taking birth was just to look of how things are going here, and as short reminder, for some able to be reminded.

Ground may have learned over the time that he get's quick unpopular and end even banned on what ever Buddhist social gathering place, engaging to much with Atma. Fearing being deprived from the food you usually gain by entertain Buddhist and still desiring having feeding places for becoming, might be the reason, why you think its good to seek for remute places with lesser connection to the good teachings. Also Ground may not find any possiblility to get feeded or to feed approached by Atma, since thinking already grounded.

This post and topic, to encourage ground on http://www.spiritualforums.com/ to give there a teaching on nissaya (ground/teacher) and upanissaya (firm ground), beginning wordly till transcendental, believing it would not only be good for Ground to recollect his knowledge and concentration, not just spinning around, feeding here, feeding there, was deleted after Atma had been banned, having rebuked the forum owner to make his "beloved teacher" they nurishing on his reputation to a pure commercial object. So you did not got this encouragement.

Maybe you like to do it there anyway and maybe you like to give it a share here as well, of course here Ground has never gained really sufficient popularity and it would need a lot of patient to make "wild-chicken" like unknown food.

For those not knowing about wild chicken

Quote
Wild Chickens, by Ajahn Chah


I'll give you a simple example. It's like wild chickens. We all know what wild chickens are like. There's no animal in the world more wary of human beings. When I first came to this forest, I taught the wild chickens. I observed them and learned many lessons from them.

At first only one of them would come past me while I was doing walking meditation. When it came close, I didn't look in its direction. Whatever it did, I didn't look in its direction. I didn't make any movement that would startle it. After a while I tried stopping still and looking at it. As soon as my eyes hit it, it ran right off. When I stopped looking at it, it would start scratching in the dirt, looking for food as before. But every time I looked at it, it would run right away.

After a little while it probably came to notice how quiet I was, so it let down its guard. But as soon as I tossed some rice in its direction, it ran right off. But I didn't care. I just kept tossing some rice out for it. After a while it would come back, but it didn't dare eat the rice. It didn't know what it was. It thought I was planning to kill it and curry it. But I didn't care whether it ate or not.

After a while it started scratching around in the dirt right there. It probably began to get a sense of what the rice was. The next day it came back to the same place and got to eat rice again. When the rice was gone, I tossed out some more for it. It ran off again. But when I kept doing this again and again, it got so that it would walk off only a little way and then come right back and eat the rice. That's when it understood.

At first the chicken saw the rice as an enemy because it wasn't acquainted with it. It didn't see it clearly. That's why it kept running off. But as it grew more tame, it came back to see what the rice actually was. That's when it knew, "This is rice. This isn't an enemy. It's not dangerous." That's how the wild chickens here came to eat rice from that day up to the present.

In this way I learned a lesson from the wild chickens. We're just like them. Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas are means for giving us knowledge of the Dhamma. They give lessons to anyone who practices. If we see them clearly in line with the truth, we'll see that that's how they are. If we don't see them clearly, they'll always be our enemies, and we'll keep running away from them all the time.


It's a hard work and needs a lot of patient, to domest wild chicken, if one seeks for such, thinking on maybe ones feeding on them or "compassion" believing they have a easier live being domested. What are you running away?
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline IdleChater

  • Member
  • Posts: 531
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2017, 05:19:45 pm »

(Atma: Here a usual polite way to say "I" when a monk talks with a lay-person, adressing him self)

Funny ... I know a lot of monastics personally and have been taught by even more, from many traditions and lineages including Thai Forest.

Never once has one them ever referred to his/her person as "atma".  They always refer to themselves as I, me, mine and others by name or you, yours etc.  They always communicate directly - they speak to people not about them.

These, of course, are all ordained monastics.

I also know a number of people who are monastics that gave back their vows.  Same thing


Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2017, 05:33:36 pm »
Hi there VisuddhiRaptor,

Seeing as you are new here, you might want to read the Terms of Service for the forum.


Thank you Sir. I thought my posts were on-topic however since they raised your concern, I will cease to post now on this topic.

Thank you for your service here.  :namaste:


While is good to be respectfull and as far as knowing Nyom Francis counts as a person worthy of respect, being after destruction of the three roots and keeping precepts, and anyhow propably older, VisuddhiRaptor is good informed, that even when Venerating the Buddha, with an unskillful mind (fear for wordily disadvantage, desire to get wordily benefits, ill-will in wanting to hurt others with it, or delusion, thinking he is of the same kind as one self), is of no merits at all but full of demerits. While being always generous and gives good advices, Nyom Francis does not wear the clouth of owner or moderator here and holds his reputation and status by best possible applying to the Sangaha Sutta.
If around practicing lay-people and monks, it's always good to remind: "they might know what I think"

So if liking to make no mistakes, now not really know the own mind, simply orientate on outwardly things like age, livelihood, relation (mother, father, teacher...).
To possible protect others, there are distinction in kind of adressing in traditional countries. They are not meant to lift one self, but kind of protections for others to make no "bad kamma" and be remid, informed of whom one talks with.
At the same time giving way to make merits and practice.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:08:51 pm by Samana Johann »
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2017, 05:54:07 pm »

(Atma: Here a usual polite way to say "I" when a monk talks with a lay-person, adressing him self)


Funny ... I know a lot of monastics personally and have been taught by even more, from many traditions and lineages including Thai Forest.

Never once has one them ever referred to his/her person as "atma".  They always refer to themselves as I, me, mine and others by name or you, yours etc.  They always communicate directly - they speak to people not about them.

These, of course, are all ordained monastics.

I also know a number of people who are monastics that gave back their vows.  Same thing


Such could have reason, Mr/Mrs IdleChater, assuming you migh have met them in the west or in a not so traditional cultur area.
When a monk desires to live on a place, even if conditions would not allow it, he needs to start to adopt forms of behaviour that people moves to support. So one desiring to live next or with people while actually condition would not allow, start to give favors (not speaking from those interested in gain and missionary to establish even a religion on places lacking conditions).

But yes, some days ago a western monk dwelling in Thailand wrote to lay people around Atma (not knowing it was a softwar-email he got, by being mentioned in the forum), hurt because my person told public that his teacher was no Arahat

Quote
To the team and monastery servants:

thank you for your information. I broke off the contact with Johann, for
I had the feeling he is off his head.
When I read his article and comment, you pointed me to, I had the
feeling he has gone mad by believing himself to be the only Arahant in
the world and being able to judge who and who isn't an Arahant and by
referring to him as Atma..

Thank you for your information. However we live in the times of the
Internet and anybody can express his ideas and understanding and that is
why just in the last 20 years we have seen such a flood of Halftruth and
Untruth and some Truth, that makes it difficult for people to really
find out what is the Truth, for everyone that writes or comments says
that he is telling nothing but the Truth. And there is nothing we can do
about it...


Atma wrote him back in German, incl. the matter on "Atma" and "Arahat". Maybe Atma can provide a transation.

So it's all not a matter of lay people and monks. No need to believe that the distinction of peoples lies in outwardly signs and names. And to see them is hard, especially for lay people but for monks not established in the path as well. Look the great advices in Paṭisalla Sutta: Seclusion

Atma has now to leave for his Almsround. May all of you have a insightful day, today.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 05:57:08 pm by Samana Johann »
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2028
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2017, 12:05:26 am »
Let's leave it at that. you are too seriously buddhist which is why I think it will be impossible for us to be on the same page.


Atma is already history, being the nature of birth, and this taking birth was just to look of how things are going here, and as short reminder, for some able to be reminded.

Ground may have learned over the time that he get's quick unpopular and end even banned on what ever Buddhist social gathering place, engaging to much with Atma. Fearing being deprived from the food you usually gain by entertain Buddhist and still desiring having feeding places for becoming, might be the reason, why you think its good to seek for remute places with lesser connection to the good teachings. Also Ground may not find any possiblility to get feeded or to feed approached by Atma, since thinking already grounded.

This post and topic, to encourage ground on http://www.spiritualforums.com/ to give there a teaching on nissaya (ground/teacher) and upanissaya (firm ground), beginning wordly till transcendental, believing it would not only be good for Ground to recollect his knowledge and concentration, not just spinning around, feeding here, feeding there, was deleted after Atma had been banned, having rebuked the forum owner to make his "beloved teacher" they nurishing on his reputation to a pure commercial object. So you did not got this encouragement.

Maybe you like to do it there anyway and maybe you like to give it a share here as well, of course here Ground has never gained really sufficient popularity and it would need a lot of patient to make "wild-chicken" like unknown food.
...


Being a monk it is appropriate for you to be seriously buddhist. I for my part have left behind the raft. But when you think of having left behind the raft the meaning of this expression will be quite different. Why? Because I could not find the river in the first place in the context of which the raft might have been useful.

I am not one of those persons you should associate with  :wink1:

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2017, 12:58:45 am »
The emptiness befor virtue thing... that why Ground feel comfortable on Esoteric places and gathers with raft destructors not having seen the first Heavenly messengers, and so of course less reason to understand the possible value of the forth.

Btw. " :wink1:", Ground should know that such eye problems come from dust and dirt, unskilful mind, having mostly root in mana (conceit).

Atma has seen, you already joined the sand-castle building, and feel already well and feeded: mudita.
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline Spiny Norman

  • Member
  • Posts: 5081
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2017, 01:31:40 am »
Hi there VisuddhiRaptor,

Seeing as you are new here, you might want to read the Terms of Service for the forum.


Thank you Sir. I thought my posts were on-topic however since they raised your concern, I will cease to post now on this topic.

Thank you for your service here.  :namaste:


Come now, Element, people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.   :wink1:

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2028
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2017, 01:39:18 am »
The emptiness befor virtue thing...
"before" isn't rightly expressed when there is only one object of interest remaining from all of buddhism, namely emptiness  :cheesy:

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2017, 01:47:59 am »
The emptiness befor virtue thing...
"before" isn't rightly expressed when there is only one object of interest remaining from all of budddhism, namely emptiness  :cheesy:

That's the problem of the greedy. They do not like to give up form first, by doing the ground work, and so their emptiness is like being stuck in a heap of sand. Dark. And why using remain? Because the other (path) was never taste or wasn't possible to take on? Never tasted, not liking, not able to distinguish or having distinguished are different things.

The Fox and the Grapes
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2028
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2017, 02:02:13 am »
The emptiness befor virtue thing...
"before" isn't rightly expressed when there is only one object of interest remaining from all of budddhism, namely emptiness  :cheesy:

That's the problem of the greedy. They do not like to give up form first, by doing the ground work, and so their emptiness is like being stuck in a heap of sand. Dark. And why using remain? Because the other (path) was never taste or wasn't possible to take on? Never tasted, not liking, not able to distinguish or having distinguished are different things.

The Fox and the Grapes

I know I know ... the serious buddhist will always have explanations for any deviation from the buddhist doctrine. And the reasons he sees for such deviations always are those phenomena the doctrinal path is asserted to eliminate. This is the classical circularity inherent in all religious beliefs. :wink1:

Nevertheless buddhism has inspired me very much and I am grateful for its philosophies that are accessible to rational analysis.

Maybe we can at least agree that some individuals are more inclined to cultivate beliefs and other individuals are more inclined to analyse. I am not the one who tries to make all individuals the same because individuals are not sausages.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 02:12:45 am by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2017, 04:35:44 am »
Of course there are two differt kind of sausages. Kranzwurst (circle-sausages) and 4 kinds of Knackwürschtel (crack-sausages).

The Buddha did not force one to become different, but at least he often mentioned that it is not good to teach something different under his name, or to missinterprate him with postmodern nonsens. So if really greatful, its goid to just stick with esiteric and not using the juwels for supporting ones inclination to ones analysis, the own opinion is the lowest pointer, counts as most insecure, he mentioned, yet not free from the fetters, bound on desire even of this and that kind of nurishment.
[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline Samana Johann

  • Not a member, just an endured/enduring guest.
  • Member
  • Posts: 580
  • Doing forest monk in Cambodia
    • View Profile
    • sangham.net
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2017, 04:50:47 am »
Btw. Good usefull quote from Visuddhiraptor here:

Quote
Bhikkhus, there are beings with a single body and a single perception (asaññasattā). Like gods born in complete happiness. This is the fourth clinging sojourn.


Only "emptiness"... stucking in/with the body.

(The snake behind on the Altar has just caught a mouse, here, of what Atma can here, lokking at the screen. Such a poisened mouse makes a very silent "sss...i sss...i" sound till it would be eaten. One might find some teaching Dhamma with pictures)

[ sangham.net Online monastery ✦ accesstoinsight.eu ✦ old used account Hanzze ]

Offline ground

  • Member
  • Posts: 2028
    • View Profile
Re: Samana Johann (Hanzze)
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2017, 05:01:20 am »
Since everything is empty there is no alternative to dealing with emptiness exclusively. The one who tries to put aside emptiness to deal with alleged 'true things' cannot be called wise.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal