Author Topic: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika  (Read 10302 times)

Offline catmoon

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2011, 09:46:18 pm »
Beats me. I think I'll just hang on to my standard Geluk view for the time being.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2011, 09:42:33 am »
Beats me. I think I'll just hang on to my standard Geluk view for the time being.

You can't go wrong with that! :jinsyx:
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline conebeckham

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2011, 09:37:18 am »
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Since the mind’s essence is primordially pure and free of stains that are other than the mind’s essence, mind’s true nature is referred to as “transcendent perfection of authentic purity.” Since the mind’s essence is other than the self that one believes in and clings to and since the mind’s essence is other than non-self or selflessness discovered through inference and deduction, mind’s true nature is referred to as “the genuine self.” But how can stains of erroneous notions about it conceal mind’s true nature? Mind’s true nature is beyond the self one thinks one perceives and then imputes to be real and it is beyond the notion of selflessness one thinks one has discovered through logical reasoning. Mind’s true nature is called “genuine self” since it is beyond any assumptions of both a self as well as non-self or selflessness.


Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso--from here: http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/shentong.htm

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2011, 10:17:30 pm »
Therefore non-inherent existence can not be asserted either.

I think this is the prasangika purist criticism of Gelug.
I think so too. But personally I kinda like the Gelug presentation for the 2nd turning. It seems less confusing and prone to nihilism, which if you skip the teachings on Buddha Nature can be a problem.

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Their point being that nothing whatsoever can be asserted concerning the final nature of phenomena 'cause form is emptiness etc.
My own cheeky take on this is that no logical proposition can be asserted. A paradox is not a logical proposition and may be the closest thing an accurate description, for whatever that's worth.

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So Emptiness has to be arrived as a direct experience.
In his book that surveys the various philosophical perspectives on emptiness Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso R. says that all Mahayana schools claim to finally rest in uncontrived emptiness in their meditations. If so--and there is a history of realized beings coming from all those schools--then everything else is just reading the menu instead of eating the meal.
:twocents:
But it's fun to talk about on the internet!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 10:20:14 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Samadhi

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #49 on: November 06, 2011, 08:01:49 pm »
Agree with it all.  Duh. :)

But, as far as getting closest to expression/description... Im partial to mantra, poetry and gangster rap.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 08:58:57 pm by Samadhi »

Offline Lgyatso

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2011, 10:53:31 am »
the Gelug presentation for the 2nd turning. It seems less confusing and prone to nihilism, which if you skip the teachings on Buddha Nature can be a problem.
Well this danger of Nihilism, is the main criticism by Shentong, of course Rangtong answers with a charge of Eternalism... that keeps the Merry-go-round spinning. If the first turning debunked an individual self, and the second shows phenomena is empty of independent existence, and the third avoids the pitfall of Nihilism. Then why can't the second and third turnings be equally accurate i.e. definitive, they don't necessarily contradict each other. For that matter the first turning doesn't contradict them either, it just doesn't deal with phenomena outside the Skandas. Perhaps the fault is in classifying teachings as proximate or definitive. A view I have been advocating--- that there is only one Yana the Buddhayana and it was just revealed over time. Pick your 'Medicine' the metaphor his Holiness Dalai Lama has been using frequently. I'm here in Mcleod Ganj surrounded by Gelugpas and haven't had a deep discussion on this... everyone just responds like they have only read Jeffery Hopkins. Also I've asked some Geshe-las why his Holiness keeps equating Emptiness and the Clear Light Nature of mind. (he taught Nagarjunas In Praise of the Dharmadhatu recently) Everywhere Nagarjuna refers to Dharmadhatu's Luminosity his Holiness would explain it as the Clear light Nature of Mind. Pretty soon the Shentongpas are going to claim him as one of their own...... :lmfao:

Lgyatso
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 10:57:33 am by Lgyatso »

Offline Mini-Senge

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2011, 09:56:33 am »
Ah, very good points!   Rime!  Indeed.  I do believe they must come together as yin and yong.  I have not read In Praise of Dharmadatu yet, but I do think it might be possible to categorize Nagarjuna as Shengtongpa, especially given the Third Karmapa's commentary on it......?   :wacky:  But that just further pushes Rime.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 10:22:35 am by Mini-Senge »

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: A Kagyu Reading of Mulamadhyamakarika
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2011, 11:52:00 am »
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I have not read In Praise of Dharmadatu yet, but I do think it might be possible to categorize Nagarjuna as Shengtongpa, especially given the Third Karmapa's commentary on it......?
Not everybody accepts "In Praise of Dharmadhatu" as authentically Nagarjuna because of just that.

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Then why can't the second and third turnings be equally accurate i.e. definitive, they don't necessarily contradict each other.
I thought that it was a given in Dharma that ALL teachings were provisional and NOT definitive. The analogy of getting out of the boat once you get to the other shore being the classic teaching on this. Once you have realization you leave the Dharma behind...

And personally I don't care at all which is provisional and which is definitive. I just like the ones I like. They are appropriate for me. Other perspectives are appropriate for other people. Simple!

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For that matter the first turning doesn't contradict them either, it just doesn't deal with phenomena outside the Skandas. Perhaps the fault is in classifying teachings as proximate or definitive. A view I have been advocating--- that there is only one Yana the Buddhayana and it was just revealed over time.
Actually that is a very Vajrayana type perspective.

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Pick your 'Medicine' the metaphor his Holiness Dalai Lama has been using frequently. I'm here in Mcleod Ganj surrounded by Gelugpas and haven't had a deep discussion on this... everyone just responds like they have only read Jeffery Hopkins. Also I've asked some Geshe-las why his Holiness keeps equating Emptiness and the Clear Light Nature of mind. (he taught Nagarjunas In Praise of the Dharmadhatu recently) Everywhere Nagarjuna refers to Dharmadhatu's Luminosity his Holiness would explain it as the Clear light Nature of Mind. Pretty soon the Shentongpas are going to claim him as one of their own...... :lmfao:
He stops short, but he gets a lot closer than any other Gelugpa I know of.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

 


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