Author Topic: The Arising of Dharmakaya  (Read 2816 times)

Offline Ngawang Drolma

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The Arising of Dharmakaya
« on: September 02, 2010, 01:54:12 pm »
I like this passage because of its reference to sitting meditation as well as recognizing the arising of thoughts as we engage in other activities.  I hope you enjoy it too   :namaste:

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Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality, which is not separate from the cause and effect of karma and which is free of mental constructs. On this ultimate level of realization, it is possible to state that there is no wholesome or unwholesome action. When we have realized the nature of all phenomena, negative actions naturally subside and positive ones are spontaneously accomplished. Until this time, however, we would be slipping into nihilism if we said that the phenomena of relative truth, such as positive and negative actions or karma, do not exist.
Just knowing this authentic view, however, is not enough. For others to be able to experience it, we must also know the scriptures and reasonings so that we can teach. Without the support of this knowledge, it will be difficult for others to trust what we say, and so Milarepa speaks of scripture and reasoning as an adornment to realization.
Dissolving thoughts into the dharmakaya--
Is this not meditation naturally arising?
Join it with experience
To make it beautifully adorned.
One way to understand meditation is to see it as a practice of working with the many thoughts that arise in our mind. With realization they arise as mere appearances of the dharmakaya, the natural arising of mind's essential nature. Being clear about this true nature of thought is called "attaining the level of natural arising." At this point, there is no difference in any thought that may arise, because we see the nature of each thought to be emptiness, arising as the dharmakaya. Meditation could be defined as realizing the dharmakaya of the Buddha.

--from Music in the Sky: The Life, Art & Teachings of the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje by Michele Martin, published by Snow Lion Publications

Offline humanitas

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 12:56:14 pm »
:headbow:
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2010, 08:36:34 pm »
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Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 09:00:16 pm »
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Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.

Really?

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 09:27:47 pm »
Quote
Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.
Really?
Yes. Shentong in Tibetan. Panentheism in English.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:29:44 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

GoGet

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 11:08:02 pm »
Quote
Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.
Really?
Yes. Shentong in Tibetan. Panentheism in English.

God within Shentong?  Intriguing.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 11:59:14 pm »
Quote
Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.
Really?
Yes. Shentong in Tibetan. Panentheism in English.
God within Shentong?  Intriguing.
Who said anything about God? More like godhead (n. divine essence or nature), divinity/sacred, or mind's essential nature, etc. However you want to characterize "Dharmakaya", as long as it is not capital G-God.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 12:31:27 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

GoGet

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2010, 06:46:53 am »
Who said anything about God? More like godhead (n. divine essence or nature), divinity/sacred, or mind's essential nature, etc. However you want to characterize "Dharmakaya", as long as it is not capital G-God

Panentheism, by definition includes god/God and you assert that Shentong = Panentehism.  So it would seem to me that based on that,  Shentong would, by necessity, have to include God/god somehow.  This doesn't fit with my limited understanding of Shentong, so I'm just looking for clarification, is all.

And doesn't referring to something as "divine" or as "divinity"  kind of presuppose God?

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2010, 08:23:21 am »
Who said anything about God? More like godhead (n. divine essence or nature), divinity/sacred, or mind's essential nature, etc. However you want to characterize "Dharmakaya", as long as it is not capital G-God

Panentheism, by definition includes god/God and you assert that Shentong = Panentehism.  So it would seem to me that based on that,  Shentong would, by necessity, have to include God/god somehow.  This doesn't fit with my limited understanding of Shentong, so I'm just looking for clarification, is all.

And doesn't referring to something as "divine" or as "divinity"  kind of presuppose God?
God is a supreme being. Buddhists don't buy a supreme being or creator God. Godhead is an abstraction, just as Dharmakaya is an abstraction. Dharmakaya is not simply emptiness or a blank state, but in Shentong is the source of all love, wisdom and power, and is the basis for all phenomena. When emptiness is realized (particularly when realized through tantric practices) all phenomena are seen to be expressions of the Dharmakaya.

So the Dharmakaya, which is never manifest and 'outside' the phenomenal world, is divine in nature and self existing. (Shentong means "empty-of-other, as in empty of anything other than its own divine nature. It is not self-empty as per Prasangika reasoning.) It is the basis for all phenomena, with samsara and nirvana being identical with ignorance being the only difference between the two. The quote by the Karmapa said that "Once you realize emptiness all phenomena are included in that reality."

So if you say that the Dharmakaya is real, that it is greater than apparent phenomena, yet apparent phenomena are part of the Dharmakaya, all you have to do is substitute the word godhead for Dharmakaya and you've got panentheism. It is the exact same relationship between the non-manifest divine reality and apparent phenomena. Only in the Buddhist version there is the corollary that we don't see it that way because of ignorance, karma, etc.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:06:58 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline heart

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2010, 09:30:47 am »
Quote
Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.
Really?
Yes. Shentong in Tibetan. Panentheism in English.

"All phenomena within the reality of emptiness" is not particularly Shentong, it is equally Rangtong. 

/magnus

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 10:01:13 am »
Quote
Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.
Really?
Yes. Shentong in Tibetan. Panentheism in English.
"All phenomena within the reality of emptiness" is not particularly Shentong, it is equally Rangtong.  
The quote was, "...all phenomena are included within this reality..." In my understanding of English to be "included within" means the same thing as "being a subset of" or "being a part of". Rangtong does not posit a Reality that is greater than apparent phenomena. When Rongtongpas present their position as a "non-affirming negation" what they are specifically not affirming is this greater Reality.

However, having said that, it could be a translation thing.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 10:47:27 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline heart

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 12:41:30 pm »
Quote
Once we realize emptiness, all phenomena are included within this reality
I call that panentheism.
Really?
Yes. Shentong in Tibetan. Panentheism in English.
"All phenomena within the reality of emptiness" is not particularly Shentong, it is equally Rangtong.  
The quote was, "...all phenomena are included within this reality..." In my understanding of English to be "included within" means the same thing as "being a subset of" or "being a part of". Rangtong does not posit a Reality that is greater than apparent phenomena. When Rongtongpas present their position as a "non-affirming negation" what they are specifically not affirming is this greater Reality.

However, having said that, it could be a translation thing.

Well, I can't see anything particular Shentong in that statement but then this Shentong/Rangtong thing never got me going much.

/magnus

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 07:11:13 am »
greater than = less than

non-affirming = affirming
[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2010, 09:22:00 am »
Rangtong - Shentong (Kagyu)
Wanga-lang-dang my ding-a-ling-a-ling-long (Butthole Surfers)
:namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

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Re: The Arising of Dharmakaya
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2010, 10:57:36 am »
greater than = less than

non-affirming = affirming

There is no spoon.

 


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