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Offline ground

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Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« on: June 26, 2017, 09:55:38 pm »
Quote
"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born.
...
"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" — then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

...

The critisism I have to raise against the Kalama sutta is not that 'knowing for oneself' should be the guiding principle but that there is no mention of how to come to know for oneself.
Neither is their mention  in relation to what aims something is to be known as skilfull or unskillful,
nor is there mention how to come to know for oneself whether these aims are reasonable,
nor is there mention how to come to know for oneself whether something is skillful or not once one has come to know what aims are reasonable,
nor is there mention how to come to know for oneself whether blame with reference to something is justified or not,
nor is there mention how to come to know for oneself whether someone is wise, unwise or ignorant.

Therefore the Kalama sutta is merely an outright rejection of valid knowledge and a mere appeal to belief.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2017, 11:32:46 pm »
So Ground likes to make people believe, that althought he himselves has not left home, clings to home, has not given up and layed down the stick, he qualifies as wise to be followed? Or what is the purpose?

As for "no information what 'seeing be one self' means" the following part trains the untained mind, to give other outwardly orientation.

Quote
from Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas

"What do you think, Kalamas? When greed arises in a person, does it arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For harm, lord."

"And this greedy person, overcome by greed, his mind possessed by greed, kills living beings, takes what is not given, goes after another person's wife, tells lies, and induces others to do likewise, all of which is for long-term harm & suffering."

"Yes, lord."

"Now, what do you think, Kalamas? When aversion arises in a person, does it arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For harm, lord."

"And this aversive person, overcome by aversion, his mind possessed by aversion, kills living beings, takes what is not given, goes after another person's wife, tells lies, and induces others to do likewise, all of which is for long-term harm & suffering."

"Yes, lord."

"Now, what do you think, Kalamas? When delusion arises in a person, does it arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For harm, lord."

"And this deluded person, overcome by delusion, his mind possessed by delusion, kills living beings, takes what is not given, goes after another person's wife, tells lies, and induces others to do likewise, all of which is for long-term harm & suffering."

"Yes, lord."

"So what do you think, Kalamas: Are these qualities skillful or unskillful?"

"Unskillful, lord."

"Blameworthy or blameless?"

"Blameworthy, lord."

"Criticized by the wise or praised by the wise?"

"Criticized by the wise, lord."

"When adopted & carried out, do they lead to harm & to suffering, or not?"

"When adopted & carried out, they lead to harm & to suffering. That is how it appears to us."

"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering" — then you should abandon them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

"What do you think, Kalamas? When lack of greed arises in a person, does it arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For welfare, lord."

"And this ungreedy person, not overcome by greed, his mind not possessed by greed, doesn't kill living beings, take what is not given, go after another person's wife, tell lies, or induce others to do likewise, all of which is for long-term welfare & happiness."

"Yes, lord."

"What do you think, Kalamas? When lack of aversion arises in a person, does it arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For welfare, lord."

"And this unaversive person, not overcome by aversion, his mind not possessed by aversion, doesn't kill living beings, take what is not given, go after another person's wife, tell lies, or induce others to do likewise, all of which is for long-term welfare & happiness."

"Yes, lord."

"What do you think, Kalamas? When lack of delusion arises in a person, does it arise for welfare or for harm?"

"For welfare, lord."

"And this undeluded person, not overcome by delusion, his mind not possessed by delusion, doesn't kill living beings, take what is not given, go after another person's wife, tell lies, or induce others to do likewise, all of which is for long-term welfare & happiness."

"Yes, lord."

"So what do you think, Kalamas: Are these qualities skillful or unskillful?"

"Skillful, lord."

"Blameworthy or blameless?"

"Blameless, lord."

"Criticized by the wise or praised by the wise?"

"Praised by the wise, lord."

"When adopted & carried out, do they lead to welfare & to happiness, or not?"

"When adopted & carried out, they lead to welfare & to happiness. That is how it appears to us."



Once one started to stick to Sila, such one is it able to step to samadhi and panna.

Belief, faith, is for every action, till awakening, prerequisite and it's the most foolish and unaware belief that one acts out of faith. Saddha has a specific notion, it's believe into the right direction (kamma, Nibbana) and grows with time and right walk to more and more clearancy.

As for people who do not like to develope virtue, they will always stick to one or another foolish preacher who makes them believe of what would be an anchor in their hopeless situation, not willing to give up.

The more amount of "free choice" the more possibility to chance the way. How ever, Saddha is the prerequisite of the path to liberation.

To get most possible sure, the Buddha gave two factors to prove = saw by one self + confirming by the wise or vici versa, meaning, when somebody tell something, prove it you self, foremost on the virtue and independency of the preacher.There are many talkers, and a person who hiddes all possibilities that one could get know his virtues, may have reasons, but not easy noble reasons.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:54:51 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2017, 11:39:13 pm »
It could be that this strategy of Ground has good intention, like a wife would tell his alcoholic husband, everytime when he is sick or faces the consequences: "Come on, you should drink more. There is nothing better as to drink."

The danger in so doing is that the fool listen to it, would not understand the "ironical" notion. And that is way the wise do not teach in such way in front of many, in a "crazy" way.

Quote
Cunda Sutta: To Cunda

nda the smith:]
"I ask the sage of abundant discernment,
awakened, lord of the Dhamma, free
of craving,
         supreme
among two-legged beings,
      best
of charioteers:
   "How many contemplatives[wise]
   are there in the world?
      Please tell me."

[The Buddha:]
"Four contemplatives, Cunda. There isn't a fifth.
Being asked face-to-face, I'll explain:
   the Victor of the path,
   the teacher of the path,
   one who lives by the path,
   & one who corrupts the path."

[Cunda:]
"Whom do the Awakened
call the Victor of the path
[&] one who is an unequalled teacher of the path?
Tell me the one who lives by the path,
and explain to me one who corrupts the path."

[The Buddha:]
"He's crossed over perplexity,
his arrow removed,
delighting in Unbinding, free
of greed,
the leader of the world with its devas:
      one like this
      the Awakened
      call the Victor
      of the path.

He here knows the foremost as foremost,
who right here shows & analyzes the Dhamma,
that sage, a cutter-of-doubt unperturbed:
      he's called the second of monks,
      the teacher of the path.

   Mindful, restrained,
he lives by the well-taught    Dhamma-principles,
            path,
associating with principles without blame:
      he's called the third of monks,
      one who lives by the path.

Creating a counterfeit
of those with good practices,
self-asserting, a corrupter of families,[1] intrusive,
deceitful, unrestrained, chaff,
going around in disguise:
      he's one who corrupts the path.

Any householder, having ferreted these out
   — a discerning disciple of those who are noble[2]—
knowing they aren't all the same,
seeing this, his conviction's not harmed.
For how could the corrupt with the un-
   corrupt,
      the impure with the pure,
         be put on a par?"

Note 1. A corrupter of families is a monk who ingratiates himself into a family's affections by performing services for them that are inappropriate for a monk to do, thus diverting their faith away from those who live by the Dhamma and Vinaya. For more on this term, see The Buddhist Monastic Code, Sanghadisesa 13.

[2] Ariya-disciple, one who has gained the path. Others are incapable to see.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:45:29 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline ground

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2017, 11:44:01 pm »
So Ground likes to make people that althought he himselves has not left home, clings to home, has not given up and layed down the stick, he qualifies as wise to be followed?
What? your question does not make sense. Please express consistently.

As for "no information what seeing be one self mean" the following part trains the untained mind, to give other outwardly orientation.
What? your sentence does not make sense. Please express consistently.

Once one started to stick to Sila, one for such one is it possible to step to samadhi and panna.

Belief, faith, is for every action, till awakening, prerequisite and it's the most foolish and unaware belief that one acts out of faith. Saddha has a specific notion, it's believe into the right direction and grows with time and right walk to more and more clearancy.

As for people who do not like to develope virtue, they will always stick to one or another foolish preacher who makes them believe of what would be an anchor in their hopeless situation.

The more amount of "free choice" the more possibility to chance the way. How ever, Saddha is the prerequisite of the path to liberation.

To get most possible sure the Buddha gave two factors to prove= saw by one self + confirming by the wise or vici versa meaning, when somebody tell something, prove it you self. There are many talkers, and a person who hiddes all possibilities that one could get know his virtues, may have reasons, but not easy noble reasons.

your words to not clarify how to come to know validly for oneself.

Offline ground

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2017, 11:49:54 pm »
It is quite clear that when it reads 'when you know for yourself' but it is not specified how one comes to validly know for oneself then there is no difference between 'when you know for yourself' and 'when you believe for yourself'

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2017, 12:01:53 am »
Only if purefied ones mind, one understand the differt between knowing (seeing) and believing. Till than Dhamma can only provide similies to increase faith in the right direction. No way if not taking the medicin like given: practice.

Maybe that make some faith:

Quote
Groping for Fish

...As long as you don't see the dangers of these things enough to let them go, don't see the rewards that will come when you do, your work won't achieve any purpose. It's as if you're just playing around with these things, scratching at them with your fingernails. If we see their drawbacks clearly, see the rewards that come from letting it go clearly — Ah!

It's like when you go trapping fish with a basket. You keep at it until you sense there's something in your basket. You can hear the noise as it bangs against the side of the basket. You think it's a fish so you put your hand into your basket and grope around, but what you catch hold of isn't a fish. It's something else that lives in the water. Your eyes can't see what it is. Part of you thinks it might be an eel; part of you thinks it might be a snake. You'd regret letting it go if it actually was an eel. But if it's a snake and you keep holding on, it's going to bite you. Understand? You're in doubt because things aren't clear. Your desire is so strong that you hold onto it in case it's an eel. As you pull it up out of the water and see the pattern on the back of its neck, you immediately let go. There's nobody there to tell you, "That's a snake! Let go! Let go!" Nobody tells you. The mind tells itself — even more clearly than if someone else were to tell it. Why is that? Because you see the danger: The snake can bite. Who needs to tell this mind? If you train it until it knows in this way, it won't hold on.
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Offline ground

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2017, 12:08:04 am »
Only if purefied ones mind, one understand the differt between knowing (seeing) and believing. Till than Dhamma can only provide similies to increase faith in the right direction. No way if not taking the medicin like given: practice.


That is not reasonable. What's the aim? How does one come to know validly for oneself what aims are worthwhile and reasonable to pursue?
And if and when one has come to know validly for oneself what aims are worthwhile and reasonable to pursue then how does one come to know validly for oneself by what means these aims are realized?

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 12:23:35 am »
When asked: "what is the cause of Saddha (faith in kamma, nibbana)?", you should say: "Dukkha (stress, suffering) is the prerequisite of Saddha."

So not only needed to meet the first 3 heavenly messangers (aging, sickness, death), also the fourth (Samana) is required, to have a "light at the end of the tunnel".

Such one who has not given up home, still sticks to home, can not easy provide with ground for saddha, even he/she would have own faith or clearancy in the aim and its path. That's why, for the sake of possible escape for many, there are those who "attend".

Quote
from On Being a Lay Attendant
"And to what extent, lord, is one a lay follower who practices both for his own benefit & the benefit of others?"

"Jivaka, when a lay follower himself is consummate in conviction and encourages others in the consummation of conviction; when he himself is consummate in virtue and encourages others in the consummation of virtue; when he himself is consummate in generosity and encourages others in the consummation of generosity; when he himself desires to see the monks and encourages others to see the monks; when he himself wants to hear the true Dhamma and encourages others to hear the true Dhamma; when he himself habitually remembers the Dhamma he has heard and encourages others to remember the Dhamma they have heard; when he himself explores the meaning of the Dhamma he has heard and encourages others to explore the meaning of the Dhamma they have heard; when he himself, knowing both the Dhamma & its meaning, practices the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma and encourages others to practice the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma: then to that extent he is a lay follower who practices both for his own benefit and for the benefit of others."
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 12:39:02 am by Samana Johann »
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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2017, 12:47:21 am »
Atma saw this on another place today, and this attentive share and gift might be useful here as well:

Quote
by Upasaka Vidar on D&D
MN 11 is pretty interesting. It compares the teachings of others to the Buddha's.

"Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of clinging. What four? Clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self."

Basically it lists three kinds of non-Buddhist teachers. Those who understand the first kind of clinging, those who understand the first and second, those who understand the first and second and third kinds of clinging. No non-Buddhist teacher understands the fourth kind of clinging, however: clinging to a doctrine of self.

In my opinion, the present day world is much the same way. There are plenty of religions that teach people the danger of clinging to sensual pleasures, views, and to rules and observances. When it comes to ideas about a self the situation is different. All non-Buddhist religions cling to one kind of self or another, it seems to me. Plenty of Buddhists also want to keep the "higher" self or concepts that are similar to the hindu "brahman". The pure Awareness that pervades the universe.

But there are also many Buddhists, who have let go of clinging to doctrines of self or clinging to doctrines concerning the non-existence of a self (as if we were talking about something meaningful to negate), like the Buddha taught his followers to do. This sets Buddhism apart from all other world religions. It did then and it also does now.

I highly recommend the whole sutta: https://suttacentral.net/en/mn11
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Offline ground

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2017, 01:16:20 am »
Still, you are only appealing to belief and hope, Hanzze. With that of course you are following the lead of the Kalama sutta which is a sermon to those who have the capacity to believe only. Ok, some call it 'faith' but nevertheless while the sutta exhorts to follow 'what one knows for oneself' still it does not specify how one comes to know validly for oneself  and therefore it is a mere appeal to belief.

We could go on interminably in circles: you appealing to belief and me insisting on valid knowledge. There is no common territory where we could meet.

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2017, 02:03:46 am »
Let's put it differently, so that it becomes clear:

Let's assume the Kalama sutta says 'when you know for yourself' but what is meant is 'when you know validly for yourself". In that case the Kalama sutta says that the means to attain valid knowledge are 'the wise' but does not say how one comes to know validly for oneself who is wise, unwise or ignorant.

Johann's view is similar, since he refers to scriptures as a placeholders for 'the wise'. So from Johann's perspective the means to attain valid knowledge are the scriptures. But the dilemma stays the same since how does one come to know validly for oneself whether the scriptures contain valid knowledge and if so whether one's understanding of the words of the scriptures is correct? Also the Kalama sutta itself says 'don't go by traditions, by scripture'. So Johann outrightly contradicts the Kalama sutta. His contradiction is no issue for me, since I also contradict the Kalama sutta. What however is an issue for me is that he merely appeals to belief in scriptures and a particular understanding of them as does the Kalama sutta in terms of 'the wise'.

Now my view is that validly knowing for oneself is necessarily and exclusively based on direct perception and proper inference, the objects of which are directly perceptibles only. Here I contradict the Kalama sutta which rejects inference.

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2017, 02:10:19 am »
Still, you are only appealing to belief and hope, Hanzze. With that of course you are following the lead of the Kalama sutta which is a sermon to those who have the capacity to believe only. Ok, some call it 'faith' but nevertheless while the sutta exhorts to follow 'what one knows for oneself' still it does not specify how one comes to know validly for oneself  and therefore it is a mere appeal to belief.

We could go on interminably in circles: you appealing to belief and me insisting on valid knowledge. There is no common territory where we could meet.

Did ground ever thought about why it is called "knowledge-release"?

So the apple argues in simply one, if ground like to go again on unfirm ground of his self: "Why does the preacher himself did not left home, still clings to home? Disrespect those having done that what he maybe tries to teach?" For one knowing for him/herself there is no doubt, others can simply relay on such a question they might not have asked them selfs before.

Foolish arguments which reject themselves, by following the strategy to simply change ones stand, may be ground for victory in the world, in the wheel of the eight loka-dhammas, but neither help one self nor others to release.

The appeal goes in direction "walk the path as given by the sage" for believing alone does not bring one to finish the work. Not even to start it.

When one has to much dust in the eyes, he will always consider dust as real, and to this extend, it is, what else does he "know", "believe".
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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2017, 02:21:32 am »
Let's put it differently, so that it becomes clear:

Let's assume the Kalama sutta says 'when you know for yourself' but what is meant is 'when you know validly for yourself". In that case the Kalama sutta says that the means to attain valid knowledge are 'the wise' but does not say how one comes to know validly for oneself who is wise, unwise or ignorant.

Johann's view is similar, since he refers to scriptures as a placeholders for 'the wise'. So from Johann's perspective the means to attain valid knowledge are the scriptures. But the dilemma stays the same since how does one come to know validly for oneself whether the scriptures contain valid knowledge and if so whether one's understanding of the words of the scriptures is correct? Also the Kalama sutta itself says 'don't go by traditions, by scripture'. So Johann outrightly contradicts the Kalama sutta. His contradiction is no issue for me, since I also contradict the Kalama sutta. What however is an issue for me is that he merely appeals to belief in scriptures and a particular understanding of them as does the Kalama sutta in terms of 'the wise'.

Now my view is that validly knowing for oneself is necessarily and exclusively based on direct perception and proper inference, the objects of which are directly perceptibles only. Here I contradict the Kalama sutta which rejects inference.

It's not good to missinterpretate, aside of very short wordily gain, maybe. The sutta says: know for oneself AND approval by te wise. Ground may insinuate my persons approach of being unclear, that would not have such big negative effects as the fist.

One not starting to be honest to one self, not able to estimate himself, having a corrupted heard, the Dhamma will be always likewise.

And if you like to arge "um des Kaisers Bart" because you are bored, think if it would not be better to make some merits instead increasing addiction to what is called "brain-mastubating" (pardon the use of such a word) mind-stimulation might be maybe more proper.
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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2017, 02:26:37 am »
Did ground ever thought about why it is called "knowledge-release"?
In your case there can only be 'belief-release'.

The correct route is this:
1. belief ->
2. cessation of belief through valid knowledge ->
3. direct perception of the nature of valid knowledge which does not render this knowledge invalid

So the apple argues in simply one, if ground like to go again on unfirm ground of his self: "Why does the preacher himself did not left home, still clings to home? Disrespect those having done that what he maybe tries to teach?" For one knowing for him/herself there is no doubt, others can simply relay on such a question they might not have asked them selfs before.
you do not have to bother since I validly know for myself and do also perceive the nature of my knowledge.

Foolish arguments which reject themselves, by following the strategy to simply change ones stand, may be ground for victory in the world, in the wheel of the eight loka-dhammas, but neither help one self nor others to release.
The world only has beliefs that is why your teachings do not go beyond the sphere of the world.


The appeal goes in direction "walk the path as given by the sage" for believing alone does not bring one to finish the work. Not even to start it.

When one has to much dust in the eyes, he will always consider dust as real, and to this extend, it is, what else does he "know", "believe".
Well as said, we may go on interminably.

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Re: Kalama sutta - to know for oneself
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2017, 03:33:14 am »
[quote="Ground]you do not have to bother since I validly know for myself and do also perceive the nature of my knowledge.[/quote]
Atma does not bother, beings are heirs of there own actions and some by believing that they know, yet scared to give it a prove if house is really abounded. While he could are endless to defent his believe, it would be for his own sake to prove it. Knowingly or unknowingly, one claiming to have attained liberation for his livelihoods sake (entertain the mind so that it has certain joy to live on) is called "the worlds greatest thief".

That is of course not the matter if simply overestimating. In any case for Grounds sake and those having Nissaya to him, give it a prove. And if actually left behind, and already living like all Arahats, it would be simply conductive to increase faith, yet, wrong views need to bb abounded, even if very subtile.
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