Author Topic: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta  (Read 561 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« on: September 26, 2017, 04:49:16 pm »
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Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2011; 79pp./241KB)
Five talks on the topic of not-self (anattā), from a ten-day meditation retreat held in France.

German/Deutsch: Formen von Selbst und Nicht-Selbst - Die buddhistischen Lehren über Anatta
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Offline francis

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 03:09:20 am »
Hi Samana Johann,

Thanissaro is an eternalist, who has the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul.  He doesn’t ‘get’ anatta. That is, there is no self to be found in the aggregates, and it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self.  Instead, he posts a load of ‘strawman arguments’ to defend his position.

So who do you believe, the Buddha or Thanissaro?

:namaste:

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 04:10:44 am »
Off-Topic: hover if you like

Nyom Francis,

My person is not perfect in English and could have readed all with certain preoccupations, it would be good if Francis would quote indicators that support Francis accusse from the book here. It's not that boring and the long Sutta part attachemt, Francis might nevertheless know already.

It's good to have discussions and previews in the library, since many would rather follow advices of people seeming to hold the same stand. There is a good Sutta, not mentioned by Bhante, maybe later here, after your generous and critical review.

Off-topic: hover if you like
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 04:58:42 am »
Thanissaro is an eternalist, who has the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul.  He doesn’t ‘get’ anatta... Instead, he posts a load of ‘strawman arguments’ to defend his position.

Can you provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self.

Can you also provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 08:28:10 am »
Off-Topic: hover if you like

Nyom Francis,

My person is not perfect in English and could have readed all with certain preoccupations, it would be good if Francis would quote indicators that support Francis accusse from the book here. It's not that boring and the long Sutta part attachemt, Francis might nevertheless know already.

It's good to have discussions and previews in the library, since many would rather follow advices of people seeming to hold the same stand. There is a good Sutta, not mentioned by Bhante, maybe later here, after your generous and critical review.

Off-topic: hover if you like


What would be better is if you could spend time learning English.  You've been posting to English forums for many years- enough that most people would have picked up enough English to be clear.  Throughout Europe, English language classes are mandatory.  Did you sleep though yours?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 08:30:44 am by IdleChater »

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 01:47:25 pm »
Quote
it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self.

Can you also provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

Likewise.  I'd also like to know what the strawman arguments are and why they're strawmen.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 01:54:26 pm by IdleChater »

Offline ground

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 10:48:50 pm »
... it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self...
The fabricator works seemelessly  :fu:

Offline francis

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 01:46:13 am »
Thanissaro is an eternalist, who has the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul.  He doesn’t ‘get’ anatta... Instead, he posts a load of ‘strawman arguments’ to defend his position.

Can you provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self.

Can you also provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

Hi VisuddhiRaptor,

Good to see you posting again.

I didn't realise you were also an eternalist, and Thanissaro fan.

If you don't understand anatta, then I suggest you check out Chapter 6, The Doctrine of No-Soul: Anatta, in a book called 'What the Buddha Taught' by Walpola Rahula.

If you want quotes, try Dhamma Wheel.

:namaste:

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline francis

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 01:50:34 am »
Quote
it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self.

Can you also provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

Likewise.  I'd also like to know what the strawman arguments are and why they're strawmen.

Hi IdleChater,

Have you read the quoted article 'Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta', by Thanissaro Bhikkhu?

It's whole premise is based on strawman arguments.

:namaste:

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 02:10:34 am »
Off-topic: Don't give Strawmans here Nyom Francis, if not liking that people possible claim you deliberatly lie, but answer or withdraw your comment, of course just if wishing to gain liberation. It does not make Francis looking very beautiful when seeking for support by means of affection or aversion, winning people on another level that the unanswered question. Just that Francis know.
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Offline francis

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 02:12:31 am »
Off-Topic: hover if you like

Nyom Francis,

My person is not perfect in English and could have readed all with certain preoccupations, it would be good if Francis would quote indicators that support Francis accusse from the book here. It's not that boring and the long Sutta part attachemt, Francis might nevertheless know already.

It's good to have discussions and previews in the library, since many would rather follow advices of people seeming to hold the same stand. There is a good Sutta, not mentioned by Bhante, maybe later here, after your generous and critical review.

Off-topic: hover if you like


Hi Samana Johann,

You quoted Thanissaro, not a sutta. Thanissaro is not a Buddha.

The Buddha’s teachings on anatta are found in the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic (SN 22.59). The sutta is best read in the context of the Three Cardinal Discourses of the Buddha translated by Nanamoli Thera.

It also helps if you provide context, in your own words, rather than quoting (or linking to) long slabs of text. Without context, who can say what is Off-Topic.

:namaste:
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 02:17:24 am by francis, Reason: clarity »
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 02:47:22 am »
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The Four Great References

7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."


So in reference to this, you have been asked, saying a member of the Savaka Sangha teaches A-Dhamma. Doing such, without having investigated attentive, without proving and without knowing, such lead in not very well situations. So it would be good to stop Strawman buildings and answer the questions you got after reviling a Venerable member of the Sangha even personaly, not only in regard of certain deeds.

It's then done not for other, not for my person, Bhante, or the questioner, but for yourself, possible benefical. So again just a hint.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 02:50:42 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline IdleChater

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 03:37:55 am »
Quote
it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self.

Can you also provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

Likewise.  I'd also like to know what the strawman arguments are and why they're strawmen.

Hi IdleChater,

Have you read the quoted article 'Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta', by Thanissaro Bhikkhu?

It's whole premise is based on strawman arguments.

:namaste:

No time for that.  I'm more interested in what you think on it.  A strawman arguments is meant to refute argument by way of misrepresention - a straw man - of the base argument.  In the case of an article like this it's unlikely that The auther is erecting strawmen.  What's more likely, is that you don't know what a strawman is in the first place, and that's what I'm digging for, not the substance of the article.

Offline francis

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 03:39:24 am »
Quote
The Four Great References

7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."


So in reference to this, you have been asked, saying a member of the Savaka Sangha teaches A-Dhamma. Doing such, without having investigated attentive, without proving and without knowing, such lead in not very well situations. So it would be good to stop Strawman buildings and answer the questions you got after reviling a Venerable member of the Sangha even personaly, not only in regard of certain deeds.

It's then done not for other, not for my person, Bhante, or the questioner, but for yourself, possible benefical. So again just a hint.


Hi Samana Johann,

I'm not the one building strawman arguments, I leave that to those who don't understand anatta and pursue eternalism.

As said previously, I follow the Buddha's teaching that there is no self to be found in the aggregates (or outside them), and it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self. 

What is your view on anatta?

:namaste:

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline francis

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Re: Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 03:43:37 am »
Quote
it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusion of self.

Can you also provide some quotes to support this view? Thanks

Likewise.  I'd also like to know what the strawman arguments are and why they're strawmen.

Hi IdleChater,

Have you read the quoted article 'Selves & Not-self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta', by Thanissaro Bhikkhu?

It's whole premise is based on strawman arguments.

:namaste:

No time for that.  I'm more interested in what you think on it.  A strawman arguments is meant to refute argument by way of misrepresention - a straw man - of the base argument.  In the case of an article like this it's unlikely that The auther is erecting strawmen.  What's more likely, is that you don't know what a strawman is in the first place, and that's what I'm digging for, not the substance of the article.

Hi IdleChater,

If you don’t have the time to read the article, then you are not in a position to comment.

:namaste:
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

 


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