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Schools of Buddhism => Mahayana => Madhyamaka => Topic started by: Samadhi on May 13, 2011, 07:52:01 pm

Title: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Samadhi on May 13, 2011, 07:52:01 pm
Hey everyone!  Im putting together a working bibliography for a master's thesis and wondered if anyone had any input as to other comparative works and newer debate.  I am looking for anything by way of recent debate or specific debated points within Madhyamaka readings.  Im obviously working with my professor and the library and my lama, but attend a secular school and thought you all might have some good ideas.  I am needing to situate myself in an academically relevant debate.

I am using (but do not have below) as my two main texts Jay Garfield's translation of Mulamadhyamakakarika and Lama Tsongkaphas commentary. 


Here is the working biblio:


D'Amato, Mario, Jay L. Garfield, and Tom J. F. Tillemans. Pointing at the Moon: Buddhism, Logic, Analytic Philosophy. New York: Oxford UP, 2009. Print.


Dreyfus, Georges B. J., and Sara L. McClintock. The Svatantrika-Prasangika Distinction: What Difference Does a Difference Make? Boston: Wisdom    Publications, 2003. Print.


Kakol, Peter Paul. Emptiness and Becoming: Integrating Mādhyamika Buddhism and Process Philosophy. New Delhi: D.K. Printworld, 2009. Print.


Newland, Guy. The Two Truths in the Mādhyamika Philosophy of the Ge-luk-ba Order of Tibetan Buddhism. Ithaca, N.Y., USA: Snow Lion Publications, 1992. Print.


Thuptan, Chhogdup. Indo-Tibetan Madhyamika Studies. New Delhi: Tibet House, 1996. Print.


Tuck, Andrew P. Comparative Philosophy and the Philosophy of Scholarship: on the Western Interpretation of Nāgārjuna. New York: Oxford UP, 1990. Print.


Vose, Kevin. Resurrecting Candrakīrti: Disputes in the Tibetan Creation of Prāsaṅgika. Boston: Wisdom Publications, 2009. Print.
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: santamonicacj on May 13, 2011, 08:57:25 pm
You're looking for Prasangika Madhyamaka material, right?
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Rael on May 13, 2011, 10:36:15 pm
soooo your writing about Madhyamaka for a masters degree...
do you practice the meditations and have you experienced anything, that should be kept private...lol...



Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: francis on May 14, 2011, 12:21:44 am
Hey everyone!  Im putting together a working bibliography for a master's thesis and wondered if anyone had any input as to other comparative works and newer debate.  I am looking for anything by way of recent debate or specific debated points within Madhyamaka readings.  Im obviously working with my professor and the library and my lama, but attend a secular school and thought you all might have some good ideas.  I am needing to situate myself in an academically relevant debate.

I am using (but do not have below) as my two main texts Jay Garfield's translation of Mulamadhyamakakarika and Lama Tsongkaphas commentary.  
...


Hi there Samadhi,

I would suggest Shantideva’s  Bodhicaryavatara. (http://www.shantideva.net/index.html)

Good luck with your thesis.  



Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Sunya on May 14, 2011, 08:37:26 am
Nagarjuna's Vigrahavyāvartanīvṛtti (Averting the Arguments).

Side-by-side translations, in the original [romanized] Sanskrit, traditional Chinese, [romanized] Tibetan, and English:

https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=fulltext&view=fulltext&vid=70 (https://www2.hf.uio.no/polyglotta/index.php?page=fulltext&view=fulltext&vid=70)

Not recent, but still might be of some value.
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: J. McKenna on May 14, 2011, 04:19:55 pm
Wow! When I did mine I wasn't allowed to plunder and rely on work from others, but had to do the work mySelf ....  My how times change things ..... all things ....  :wink1:
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Yeshe on May 15, 2011, 02:14:41 am
Wow! When I did mine I wasn't allowed to plunder and rely on work from others, but had to do the work mySelf ....  My how times change things ..... all things ....  :wink1:


Bet you even had to sharpen your own quill pens back then!  ;D

I had a strange experience  - the initial rejection of any idea I expressed unless it came from someone else, usually long dead, but at the same time a requirement to produce original work. Guess therein lies the divide between academic arts and sciences.  I also had an undergraduate paper I wrote pinched by the Professor and used in his lectures - which wasn't so bad but he only awarded me a grade 'B'! LOL :)

In this case, it looks like one has to prove wide knowledge of existing research, and make reference to it. However, whereas long ago we had to make an original contribution to the field, these days it seems not to be required.   In the UK a degree equates to the level fo difficulty of 'O' Levels in the 1960's.  Statistically, I see no rise in the IQ level of the population, yet 40% of them now go to university.  The only conclusion is that standards have fallen to meet them.

It's worth checking out the online Berzin Archives, which also leads to other sources:

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level5_analysis_mind_reality/voidness/five_great_madhyamaka_lines_reasoning.html (http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/sutra/level5_analysis_mind_reality/voidness/five_great_madhyamaka_lines_reasoning.html)

I would add to the Bibliography 'Ocean of Nectar' by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ocean-Nectar-True-Nature-Things/dp/0948006234/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305450793&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ocean-Nectar-True-Nature-Things/dp/0948006234/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305450793&sr=8-1)

''Product Description

This is the first complete explanation in English of Chandrakirti's Guide to the Middle Way, a classic Mahayana scripture, which to this day is regarded as the principal presentation of Buddha's profound view of emptiness, the ultimate nature of reality. With a new translation and verse-by-verse commentary, the author reveals this profound meaning to the West with utmost clarity, and guides us along the stages of the Bodhisattva path to full enlightenment. The book is an indispensable guide for the serious practitioner of Mahayana Buddhism.''[/i]

Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: justsit on May 15, 2011, 06:17:50 am
Karl Brunnholzl, Center of the Sunlit Sky
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: santamonicacj on May 15, 2011, 09:23:37 pm
Karl Brunnholzl, Center of the Sunlit Sky
Jusit, have you actually read that? It's pretty imposing looking.

For those that don't know of it I believe it is an indepth explanation of the Kagyu version of Shentong. Is that right Justsit?
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: justsit on May 16, 2011, 05:17:27 am
Here (http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_7377.html) is the review from Snow Lion. I have read some of the book, Karl's writing is extremely clear and concise.
He was recently made Khenpo, one of the first Westerner's to be so honored
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: santamonicacj on May 16, 2011, 07:54:26 am
Here ([url]http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_7377.html[/url]) is the review from Snow Lion. I have read some of the book, Karl's writing is extremely clear and concise.
He was recently made Khenpo, one of the first Westerner's to be so honored

In the Table of Contents it says it has, "Further chapters are devoted to the Autonomist-Consequentialist distinction."
I haven't even heard of that!
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Yeshe on May 16, 2011, 08:54:42 am
Here ([url]http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_7377.html[/url]) is the review from Snow Lion. I have read some of the book, Karl's writing is extremely clear and concise.
He was recently made Khenpo, one of the first Westerner's to be so honored

In the Table of Contents it says it has, "Further chapters are devoted to the Autonomist-Consequentialist distinction."
I haven't even heard of that!


Neither have I.  :gawrsh:

Maybe it is describing a belief that we have autonomous control of our morality and behaviour; the opposite would be that it is the outcome of karma - previous stinginess in a past life makes us give everything away to others altrustically in this life.  Bad example, but I see it as individual control versus karma.

Either that or somebody made it up so they could give talks and write articles about it and automatically create present wealth. ;)
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: santamonicacj on May 16, 2011, 10:35:44 am
Quote
In the Table of Contents it says it has, "Further chapters are devoted to the Autonomist-Consequentialist distinction."
I haven't even heard of that!

Neither have I.  :gawrsh:

Maybe it is describing a belief that we have autonomous control of our morality and behaviour; the opposite would be that it is the outcome of karma - previous stinginess in a past life makes us give everything away to others altrustically in this life.  Bad example, but I see it as individual control versus karma.

Either that or somebody made it up so they could give talks and write articles about it and automatically create present wealth. ;)
The focus of the book is Madhyamaka, both Prasangika and Yogacara flavors as understood in the Karma Kagyu tradition. I don't see much about anything else in the Table of Contents. I suspect it relates somehow to the Rangtong/Shentong debate.

If it weren't $78 I'd get one to find out. And of course since I'm a pseudo intellectual I'd only peruse it instead of really reading it. Not worth $78 for that.
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Yeshe on May 16, 2011, 12:17:13 pm
Quote
In the Table of Contents it says it has, "Further chapters are devoted to the Autonomist-Consequentialist distinction."
I haven't even heard of that!

Neither have I.  :gawrsh:

Maybe it is describing a belief that we have autonomous control of our morality and behaviour; the opposite would be that it is the outcome of karma - previous stinginess in a past life makes us give everything away to others altrustically in this life.  Bad example, but I see it as individual control versus karma.

Either that or somebody made it up so they could give talks and write articles about it and automatically create present wealth. ;)
The focus of the book is Madhyamaka, both Prasangika and Yogacara flavors as understood in the Karma Kagyu tradition. I don't see much about anything else in the Table of Contents. I suspect it relates somehow to the Rangtong/Shentong debate.

If it weren't $78 I'd get one to find out. And of course since I'm a pseudo intellectual I'd only peruse it instead of really reading it. Not worth $78 for that.

The problem I find is that the teacher positing their own position usually makes a good case for dismissing the other views.  I have to be careful not to select teachings which reinforce my prejudices.  At the moment I'd probably order a Gelugpa Madhyamaka Prasangika Pizza with a Shentong topping! :)
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: santamonicacj on May 16, 2011, 05:52:37 pm
The problem I find is that the teacher positing their own position usually makes a good case for dismissing the other views.  I have to be careful not to select teachings which reinforce my prejudices.  At the moment I'd probably order a Gelugpa Madhyamaka Prasangika Pizza with a Shentong topping! :)
It doesn't seem to matter much which view you hold. People have gained realization holding widely divergent views, and Zen people don't even get into this stuff at all!

What was important to me in this regard is that I found a view that suits my needs and allows me to apply myself to my practice with least confusion and most confidence, and what makes sense to me may not suit somebody else.  I really don't care which view is "provisional" and which is "definitive". What difference does it make?
:twocents:

Edit: Oops, forgot. If you're doing the Sutrayana style of Mahamudra practice it is pretty important to have a good working knowledge of the Prasangika Madyamakha, from what I'm told, otherwise you could become attached to a false realization--but I'm not doing that!
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: zerwe on May 16, 2011, 07:59:09 pm
Here ([url]http://www.snowlionpub.com/html/product_7377.html[/url]) is the review from Snow Lion. I have read some of the book, Karl's writing is extremely clear and concise.
He was recently made Khenpo, one of the first Westerner's to be so honored

In the Table of Contents it says it has, "Further chapters are devoted to the Autonomist-Consequentialist distinction."
I haven't even heard of that!


I believe that this is the Svatantrika vs. Prasangika debate. Argumentation that makes assertions about the ultimate by way of the conventional (autonomous) vs. pointing out the fallacies (consequences) of such argumentation/ obstaining from making such assertions (prasangika).

From what I have learned this is in some ways moot as elements of both Svatantrika and Prasangika are extant in many modern schools.

Shaun :namaste:
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Samadhi on May 23, 2011, 08:05:46 pm
Thanks for all the responses!!

Well, it seems the current area of burgeoning scholarship is:

1- Prasangika vs Svatantrika within the Buddhist community.

2 - Western Permutations of Madhyamaka- Wittgenstein and Pyrrhonism.

3 - Phenomenology/Deconstruction and Dharmadatu

There are some other loose ends that I can work with too... for example, Sextus Empiricus and Nagarjuna were both alive at the same time and both make use of the 4fold negation.  Likewise Pyrrho and the Shakyumuni Buddha were alive at the same time and both purported selflessness of self and phenomenon.  But, this is more historical.... I lean toward philology and philosophy.

What is truly interesting is that the eastern view has not changed very much whereas western thinking (from about Thales, Heraclitus, Anaximander, Pyrrho) has undergone a circular pattern.  Beginning after these early greeks "western thought" has undergone anthropomorphism- attaching subjectivity to metaphysics- beginning with Plato and ending with Hegel or Nietzsche.  Wittgenstein provided a resurgence of selflessness then Heidegger and Derrida (among others) have finalized the completion of the circle of thought... reintegrating itself once more with Buddhist thought (unbenounced to them :) )... specifically madhyamaka and mahayana philosophy.  This is my true area of interest... but will require my 2 MA papers to get there:

1. Nietzsche and Heidegger on the Greeks
2. Madhyamaka and Mahayana as Pyrrhonism and Postmodernism


(so.. my professor... his academic mentor is Jay Garfield... translator of Mulamadhyamakakarika and Ocean of Reasoning.... yay!!)

I guess what I am looking for.... ANY advice, thoughts, etc....   and any subject of debate within the community of Tibetan Buddhists.  
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: santamonicacj on May 23, 2011, 09:39:33 pm
I am of the opinion that there is a great similarity between NeoPlatonism and Shentong/Yogacara Madhyamaka.

...but that's just me, and I'm just a pseudo intellectual.
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Samadhi on May 25, 2011, 09:01:19 am
Recent scholarship has attempted to show that Pyrrho and the Buddha (living at the same time) both used a 'negative' thesis to assert selflessness of self and phenomena.  Later, it is speculated, Sextus Epiricus (cementer of Pyrrhonism) and Nagarjuna both re-arrived at the conclusion of selflessness of self and phenomena through the 3-4fold negation.  It is held that Sextus migrated east and Nagarjuna showed him how to attach a soteriological end (liberation) onto emptiness, or as Sextus says, 'suspension'.  It is moreover held (by myself and a few others) that Pyrrhonism and Madhyamaka are identical.

This is all based on circumstantial evidence.  It can neither be proven or not.

Moreover, Plato was strongly influenced by Pyrrhonism and we know that Christianity is another form of Platonism.  As a matter of fact, Blaise Pascal, George Berekley and Kierkegaard both assent to Pyrrhonism, but when it comes to a dualistic conception of 'god' they make a dogmatic leap of faith to both original sin and Christ as the redeemer.  I think the Jesuit monastic order is of the same philosophy.  Origen, founder of NeoPlatonism, was certainly deeply mystical and used Pyrrhonistic philosophy.  It might not be Buddhism perse, but to the extent that Pyrrhonism is the same as Buddhism is very similar.  So, I agree with you.  If you ever get a chance to read "The Magus of Strovolos" it is a great account of a neoplatonic 'healer' in Cyprus.  It is apparently true.

Im a pseudo intellectual as well... maybe one day Ill get there!! ;)
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: santamonicacj on May 27, 2011, 12:19:36 am


Here's another odd thought: Sartre's philosophy is all based on the idea that Mahamudra/Dzonchen is impossible.

See "Transcendence of the Ego."
Title: Re: Input for Bibliography
Post by: Samadhi on August 04, 2011, 12:29:02 pm
Update:

Recently finished:

Meditation on Emptiness
Empty Words
Resurrecting Candrakirti

Just ordered off amazon and about to begin:

Pointing at the Moon
Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka - Jan Westerhoff
Svatantrika-Prasangika Distinction
Essence of other-emptiness
Yogacara Influence on mahamudra
Madmans Middle Way
Two Truths Debate - Gorampa vs Tsongkhapa
Freedom of Extremes - Gorampa vs Tsongkhapa vs Dolpopa
Uttaratantra - Maitreya
Uttaratantra - Khenchen Trangu Rinpoche
Distinguishing Phenomena and Pure Being
In Praise of Dharmadatu


So, this has been my own prescribed pedagogy/vision:

These all progress with each other, but the focus changes over time.  For example, right now I am spending 70% of my time working with Svatantrika VS. Prasangika and a general development in madhyamaka.  The remainder effort is with western analysis and rangtong vs. shentong studies.  I suspect after I have finished the book "Svatantrika Prasangika Distinction" there will be a more dramatic shift toward shentong studies and fine tuning my views on the debate outside of shentong with the two Gorampa books.  Finally there will be a final push to come to terms with Shentong with "Distinguishing Phen and Being" and "Praise of Dharmadatu".

Above is my plan.  I am going to try and have this list completed by Spring 2012.


Once more... any advice will be used and is thoroughly appreciated. 

Sarvamangalam!!
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